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Me? I think anyone who keeps meeting with the same problems over and over is actually making the same mistakes over and over. They might be subtle, or seem so normal they go completely unnoticed, but they are there.

There's no need to look back to a "past life" in order to find out what's going wrong now, or to find out who you are.
The chances are your expectations or approach have a flaw that keeps leading to the same kind of problem. Fix the flaw and things will change.
Who you are now is not who you were a year ago, 10 years ago on your last or your first day at school. You are who you are now. The past plays a part and your experiences shape your life somewhat, but if I can be as fundamentally different now to how I was in school, I see no reason to believe that any "past life" - real or imagined - plays any relevant part in the here and now.


I've got a fairly deep dislike for the approach of seeing regression, readings and so on as anything other than a distraction from what the client really needs, which is usually a good hard look at themselves and making a few basic changes. That is unless, of course, it is clearly presented as entertainment, in which case it might not be my cup of tea, but then, neither are X-Factor, Big Brother or many other popular forms of entertainment.
Presenting it as real - even if you rationalise it to yourself by saying you don't tell them it's a past life but just let them talk and draw their own conclusions - strikes me as way off for a host of reasons.

I think Jamy Ian Swiss said it best when he compared the magician's lies with the psychic's lies. (Regardless of how we package it, we are all lying to our audience.) Here we are talking not about psychics per se, but I think the spirit of his comment applies just as well.

"It's a fun thing, as long as all the cards are on the table, if you will, and it's an honest demonstration and an honest claim...
...I'm going to fool you now, I'm going to lie to you now, I'm an honest liar.
When I say the word magician, I'm really saying a lot more than that; I'm saying "I'm going to lie to you". That's my job, but you're safe because you know; I warned you.
And so I'm kinda like the guy who sells you a ticket to the rollercoaster, and I bring you up there, I give you that near death experience that you want but I also promise I'll bring you back to the place whence you began in a not severely altered state.
...but the psychic, who uses these tools of my legitimate, honest living and then misuses them to mislead people about the way the world works, he sells you a ticket, brings you up on top of the rollercoaster and kinda leaves you there, pushes you off."

Jamy Ian Swiss doesn't know what he is talking about. I know dozens and dozens of psychics personally and not a single one of them uses a single tool of the magician's trade. In fact generally speaking they know nothing whatever about magic.

mark lewis wrote:Jamy Ian Swiss doesn't know what he is talking about. I know dozens and dozens of psychics personally and not a single one of them uses a single tool of the magician's trade. In fact generally speaking they know nothing whatever about magic.

Well said Mark. I was going to say something very similar but then couldn't be bothered. "Here we go again," I thought.

A minor point, Mark.
The tools are irrelevant... it is the lie which is important.
(That said, I believe the "tools" he refers to are common to magicians and psychics... lies, in short... but for the sake of argument feel free to assume he actually means sleights, misdirection and so on... the core point stands either way.)

A magician lies honestly and brings the rollercoaster rider back down. The psychic's lie is fundamentally different and either plants or encourages (passively or directly) a belief in something that is demonstrably false.
Simply saying "Magician" says "lies" because only the rare nutcase believes people can REALLY make things vanish with some sort of supernatural magic.
"Psychic" on the other hand has a claim of reality and a huge number of believers who genuinely think the lies presented by a psychic (be that directly or through passively allowing false assumptions to stand uncorrected) are real.

The assumption though is that the psychic is knowingly lying. In my experience this is rarely the case.

Actually I don't know of any psychic who lies except of course for the gypsy psychics and others of that ilk. There are indeed scam artists in this business since it is not a regulated activity. These people are not looked on with favour among their more worthy colleagues.

However, the vast majority of psychics don't tell lies. They are sincere and genuine people who are trying to help others. Mind you some of them do more harm than good but that is another discussion. My point is that they are not telling deliberate lies. The magician is.

I have just worked a psychic fair and got great amusement from hearing that the promoter was getting complaints from one psychic that a rival was putting a hex on her booth.

That is not the act of someone who is deliberately telling lies. You may think she is demented or delusional or that perhaps her complaint had merit but you cannot say she tells deliberate lies in her readings.

mark lewis wrote:I have just worked a psychic fair and got great amusement from hearing that the promoter was getting complaints from one psychic that a rival was putting a hex on her booth.
.

I worked at a fair once and a couple who had a gemstone stall opposite me came over and very earnestly gave me some precious stone or other to ward off negativity and the evil eye. Apparently they were picking up vibes that a tarot reader near-by was putting some kind of hex on me and they wanted to help me. I smiled politely and thanked them for their kind gift.

BigShot wrote:There's no need to look back to a "past life" in order to find out what's going wrong now, or to find out who you are. The chances are your expectations or approach have a flaw that keeps leading to the same kind of problem. Fix the flaw and things will change.

and that...is far easier said than done...on paper, all peachy and easy...but in real life, people have problems and need help...that may not be your intention in saying what you have, or rather, the implication...

however - that comment is coming over (to me) as paying lip-service or not seeing it from that person's point of view...

other people's problems are easy...

Iain,
That response makes absolutely perfect sense if I've never worked through any big problems of my own. Unfortunately, that assumption is false. I speak not from paper, but from experience. I know exactly how hard it can be to make changes to the way you react to, approach or deal with things/people/life.

Honest and useful answers are quite often far harder than the nice ones that dodge the issue. If a person genuinely has recurring problems, running away to an imagined past life does nothing to address it. Finding the flaw and then working through it in one way or another addresses it directly... maybe not easily, but directly none the less. There is useful help available for these issues, but past life regression, readings and so on are not that help. Distractions, not solutions.

Yes, sometimes people do need help, perhaps even the majority could do with it, but putting someone under hypnosis and leading them to believe or confirming they have lived past lives (and by getting them to regress "before your birth" and "leaving them to draw their own conclusions" the hypnotist conducting the session does exactly that) doesn't fit the bill. It is a distraction from their problem, possibly even reenforcing the flaw because "it comes from a previous life" when it is nothing of the sort.

If someone comes into a hospital with severe abdominal pain, a prescription for morphine may well make them feel better, it may well be exactly what they want, but it doesn't solve the real problem of their appendix/cancer/other which is causing the pain in the first place. The real problem may be far harder to face, the real treatment may be far less pleasant than the painkiller, but it is real and the only truly useful path to take.



Mark,
Of course, some people genuinely believe they have psychic abilities and charge others for their work. Maybe it's not fair to call delusion a lie, but there are plenty of people who do know that it's all baloney and not only work in the industry, but defend and even promote it.

I find it rather amusing that you talk about scam artists on one hand and their "worthy" colleagues on the other. It strikes me that both are dealing in lies, only one of them isn't astute enough realise it. In fact, joining the dots in your post it seems that the only thing that makes a psychic "worthy" is if they are nuts enough to actually believe their psychic powers exist and that we have past lives we can regress to.

All of that said, there are many psychics, readers, hypnotists and so on who know that they are not leading their clients on any kind of past life regression (or whatever other service or reading they may offer)... and that all the things they sell as real (implied, stated or just not denied) are demonstrably false. They are people who despite knowing this, take money from people who may actually need real help, and instead give them farce.

They "hear" names from dead relatives, by aiming among the top 10 names for the relevant age bracket and being assured of a hit. They make Barnum statements and reinforce the clients adaptation of the statement to themself. They do all this knowing that it is false, knowing that the people they charge for the "service" desparately want to believe or be helped and all without so much of a hint of the truth.

Those suffering from delusion and believeing their own chicanery are one thing, those who are not are entirely different.

even by going through your own problems doesnt mean anything to anyone else to be honest...real, true empathy doesnt exist...

its one of the worst things to say to some people "i know what you're going through...."...but i digress...

i just meant your comments came across as a little brash/harsh to someone who (though i've no idea why she likes this place) obviously feels the need to seek out therapy...

as i said in my post, the past-life part is not really the important bit, its the fact that she obviously wants to find an answer to something via a form of therapy...

if i didnt say it in my first post (and I'm too lazy to copy and paste this in case i hadnt) i would say she should speak to her doctor first and get referred to someone...

ever thought of mediums in this way before?

as a form of healing through metaphor?

maybe on some level - everyone knows deep down that "its all a lie..."; yet, because they can hear comforting words, can tell a whole crowd of strangers their woes and fears and troubles - sharing a secret with a big group of people who won't tell them to stop being silly...

that by doing this, crying, and being with other people who are also going through a grieving process and just want to hear that the person they loved is ok now...

that they may just find it a cathartic experience, and feel more able to move on? death can do massively strange things to the living...

just a thought...

i must say, i don't like the blanket tarring of any group of people, as its never true...

there's bad doctors, bad "anything", doesnt mean all doctors are bad...some therapists sleep with their patients for example, doesnt mean we are all going to get lucky...

IAIN wrote:even by going through your own problems doesnt mean anything to anyone else to be honest...real, true empathy doesnt exist...

its one of the worst things to say to some people "i know what you're going through...."...but i digress...

i just meant your comments came across as a little brash/harsh to someone who (though i've no idea why she likes this place) obviously feels the need to seek out therapy...

as i said in my post, the past-life part is not really the important bit, its the fact that she obviously wants to find an answer to something via a form of therapy...

if i didnt say it in my first post (and I'm too lazy to copy and paste this in case i hadnt) i would say she should speak to her doctor first and get referred to someone...

I absolutely agree with your comments about my post and how it may have come across. I do apologise for any brashness that may seem directed towards the OP or her situation. Any that was actually there was a reaction to a few comments that got under my skin when reading the responses to it. Again, my apologies for the tone.

I am not trying to say "I know what [she is] going through" because I don't. The only reason I mentioned that is to explain to you that I've been through the process of finding and solving flaws. That's no claim to knowing the OP's situation. Not to claim empathy, but to half illustrate that I don't think it's an easy thing to achieve.

I have no doubt she feels the need to seek out therapy, but she is seeking it out in the wrong place. I quite agree that it sounds like she needs help, but anything that encourages her to seek therapy with someone who is either a charlatan or deluded is not helpful. I quite agree that she should seek help if she needs it, though I do fear that "real help" all too often comes as a last resort after various unpleasant drugs have been tried.


Yes, I have considered the idea that mediums provide some sort of healing and maybe even positive. After lengthy consideration I'm leaning towards the conclusion that it is false.

I was going to give an explanation of why, and I'm happy to do so if need be, but it's late, I'm off to bed and I just remembered a video I watched not too long ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xswt8B8- ... playnext=1
I think Mr. Dawkins is a bit of a numpty, but Derren Brown did a marvelous job of dealing with the issues presented to him and made a good explanation of a good number of the things I find disturbing about the psychic industry (again, entertainment-only types excluded).
EDIT: Video 2 is the one with the response about comforting.

Sure, there are bad doctors, bad therapists, bad brickies and so on... however, a "bad therapist" would need to at least be dealing with therapy. I simply don't believe that medium acts, regression and so on count as therapy. They are a distraction and a wonderful means to syphon money from many pockets to the practitioner's bank account... but that's about it... at best.

I was highly amused to see Derren chatter about lots of things he actually knows nothing about. It reminds me of the twaddle written in the Ian Rowland book. Intelligent sounding twaddle but twaddle nevertheless.

I don't suppose one pyschic in a thousand uses any of the stuff he is talking about except for the spiritualist mediums and I do admit that most of them are bent or self deluded. The best ones are usually the television ones and they indeed use all the techniques mentioned.

But not the multitude of psychics who read palms or tarot cards. They are reading what they see and interpret along with a healthy dose of intuition.
They are NOT lying any more than a Christian minister is lying when he says Jesus rose from the dead. In fact if you accused them of cold reading or other shenanigans they would be highly insulted even if they knew what cold reading was which they usually don't.

The twit magicians who debunk the psychic business don't actually know anything about the subject they are debunking. They know NOTHING about psychic readings except what they read in sceptical books by other magicians who have never done a reading in their lives.

Anyway it ill behooves Derren Brown to say that psychics are a load of cobblers when he pretends he does what he does by NLP, psychology and body language when the rest of us know that he is doing stuff that he read in magic books.

And it is reported to me that the chap swears on stage. Quite disgraceful. You wouldn't see dear old Doris Stokes do that, would you?

So, his performance style doesn't meet your approval? So what? Seems odd you criticise Brown for talking without first hand knowledge and then do exactly that about his show. Interesting lack of consistency there.


So, we now get to my earlier point that there's an industry of deluded people or liars and the liars the ones defending and growing the industry.

Strictly speaking there are fundamental differences between a Christian minister and a psychic. The hypothesis that Jesus rose from the dead is unfalsifiable. It is a claim about past events and all we have to go on are books and faith... psychic phenomena and services are demonstrably false. That's a huge difference.

It is clear I am distinguishing between psychics daft enough to believe it and those who know there is nothing to it and still fleecing people.

In the former case we have people who aren't smart enough to realise they are misleading people taking money from people who aren't smart enough to see the nonsense they are paying for and that should not be encouraged or defend.
In the latter case we have charlatans and their position is indefensible.

However the lies are told, willingly or unknowingly, they are told. I don't for a minute believe that anyone taking part in this discussion believes in past life regression without some sort of circuitous rationalisation or justification. Even you, Mark, man with a wealth of experience in the psychic industry say you have not seen a scrap of evidence that past lives are real. Though you qualify it with the "however..." that you haven't seen evidence that they are false you know they aren't real. They are demonstrably false.

Despite that you sidestep comments about those who know it is false and instead defend the types who actually believe the transparently nonsensical guff they tell clients. That is no defence of those who knowingly profit from the ignorance of the misled, who defend the indefensible and who support and encourage an industry based upon utterly false methods and principles which are kept hidden from the market.

Yes, it is an unregulated market, and I suspect that is because if true regulation was introduced there would be no industry left in the aftermath.

just because there is no proof now, does not mean there will never be proof or that something doesn't exist...

look into the word ATOMOS for example...