talkmagic.co.uk

gunnarkr wrote:Like has been pointed out before in this thread, the programme is not called Penn & Teller: Entertain us!, it's called Penn & Teller: Fool us!

But quite a few of the magicians decided to do what they do best and entertain the audience (milk the national TV time they got), rather than try to fool the dynamic duo, just like Gazzo did.

But this is TV and the producers are the ones with the agenda, not the magicians. They want variety. If you put the acts of John Archer, Richard Bellars, Graham Jolley and Morgan & West in the one episode, people would switch off. But hide the fooling mentalism with variety likes people hiding in boxes, cup and ball and dragon magic and you have an entertaining show.

I don't blame anyone who puts themselves forward on the show purely for self-promotion. Provided they're entertaining the show works. The shows that have fallen flat are those where the acts aren't entertaining, not necessarily the ones where there's no fooling going on.

The only two acts that have left me baffled as to their inclusion were the kid (because it turned it a little into Britain's Got Talent and a bit too patronising) and the quick-change act (as good as they were for that type of act, if there's no dialogue I want to be blown away - like Cubic Act)

Still, I love the show and will be sad when it ends.

You've missed the point Stacey, I don't really want friends that bitterly tear each other apart behind their backs then follow them on Twitter the day after they have been on tv. It's not about sharing. You're obviously naieve and new to this.
There are members of this 'sharing community' that think it's ok to put up someone's hard work for free on file sharing sites (which has happened to me recently).

There are two types of magicians :

1) Those that are out there entertaining people and working hard at what they do.
2) Those that sit on their computers tearing the above apart and saying how they could do it better despite NOT proving themselves to be right on this front.

I have some VERY good friends in the magic world but there are some people I couldn't stand to spend a minute with. The people I'm friendly with tend to be the wildly creative ones...

Lord Freddie wrote:I hear what you're saying Phillip, many magicians have no imagination and pilfer other people's material as if it's a pick n mix. How many of them have added effects they have seen on P&T into their act thinking it will make them a top class performer but not realising that the audience will know what's coming and look for methods. Sadly, many are not as clever as they think they are...

I agree 100% with you here Freddie. I started a thread not long ago about stealing other peoples material, not sure if you read it. Some of the responses were interesting indeed, and was a bit of an eye opener. Seems many magicians feel that working out someones effect gives them the right to perform it, which in my opinion is a sad state of affairs. When we see someone performing a great effect it should be seen as THEIR EFFECT, not ours. Aparently it seems theres not much in the way of ethics when it comes to the magic world

jim

People that pilfer other's material without an ounce of their own input... How can they live with themselves and feel what they are doing is worthwhile? It's like a bad covers band rather than someone who comes up with original material.

The4thCircle wrote:But Scott Adams (cartoonist) once said that originality was just plagiarism plus lack of talent multiplied by time.

Just wanted to say that I love this quote.

As you were.

If anyone is interested in the topic of stealing maybe they could add their thoughts to the thread i mentioned above, it will save this thread from veering off topic. Here is the link to the stealing thread

http://www.talkmagic.co.uk/ftopic38943.php&highlight=

jim

Lord Freddie wrote:People that pilfer other's material without an ounce of their own input... How can they live with themselves and feel what they are doing is worthwhile? It's like a bad covers band rather than someone who comes up with original material.

It's also endemic within the stand-up comedy world. Someone does the hard work to come up with a routine and then their jokes get stolen and justified by the argument of "it's how you tell them!" Keith Chegwin felt the wrath of may comics for tweeting gags from working comics. Actually have their been any public magician name and shaming of routine theft?

The problem is the talentless never understand the time and work involved in being creative.

me_simon wrote:

Lord Freddie wrote:People that pilfer other's material without an ounce of their own input... How can they live with themselves and feel what they are doing is worthwhile? It's like a bad covers band rather than someone who comes up with original material.

It's also endemic within the stand-up comedy world. Someone does the hard work to come up with a routine and then their jokes get stolen and justified by the argument of "it's how you tell them!" Keith Chegwin felt the wrath of may comics for tweeting gags from working comics. Actually have their been any public magician name and shaming of routine theft?

The problem is the talentless never understand the time and work involved in being creative.

One of the truest statements I have read in a long time. Having worked in the cabaret world, it's very true that there are parasites in all walks of entertainment. I have had material blatantly ripped off as have many others I know.

The sad thing I think all this indicates, including the ripping to shreds of people that have comitted the crime of appearing on television rather than behind a computer screen, is the lack of respect that many seem to have towards their fellow performers.

Lord Freddie wrote:You've missed the point Stacey, I don't really want friends that bitterly tear each other apart behind their backs then follow them on Twitter the day after they have been on tv. It's not about sharing. You're obviously naieve and new to this.
There are members of this 'sharing community' that think it's ok to put up someone's hard work for free on file sharing sites (which has happened to me recently).

There are two types of magicians :

1) Those that are out there entertaining people and working hard at what they do.
2) Those that sit on their computers tearing the above apart and saying how they could do it better despite NOT proving themselves to be right on this front.

I have some VERY good friends in the magic world but there are some people I couldn't stand to spend a minute with. The people I'm friendly with tend to be the wildly creative ones...

I disagree totally with this ... I think that members of THIS sharing community (ie this forum and others like it) are here for the good of sharing and spreading ideas (members who offer free eBooks for ESP decks, free ideas to use with the Phoenix Double deck etc) are doing the world of magic the world of good. People who use sharing programs like Kazaa or torrent things are scum and should be treated as such. Just because you have had some of your work copied and spread for free doesn't really give you the right to assume that Stacey is naive / new to this :/

It could be because this isn't my 9-5, but if I were to create anything of purpose, I would share it with my magic community first ... for a cut of the cost, if "Joe Bloggs" wants to reveal it on youtube for free, with poor explanations, then all good for them ... even though I'd be annoyed as hell to have it copied, it'd be MY idea and I'd still be happy with it .

I'm not meaning to start anything here btw ... I just agree with Stacey on this matter

Dan

I came to the conclusion that Stacey was new to this because she completely missed the point of my post and has an extremely Rose tinted view of things.

Try this:
Come up with a good idea that's yours.
Show it off at the next "magic meet" you go to.
Then count how many of them are doing it next time you meet up.

There are so many people around who don't care about art or doing something fresh, they just want attention and to be in the limelight, no matter what it takes to get them there.

When Derren Brown appeared, every two-bit magician put down their cards and proclaimed themselves to be a "psychological illusionist" and blathered on about NLP with a batch of envelopes under their arm. Everytime there is a David Blaine special there is a rush to buy the same effects...

The point that Stacey ("that's not my name!") missed is I was stating that a huge part of magic is the element of surprise, so if you are adding to your act effects that have just been seen by millions on national television, the audience will know the ending and will look for method. These people assume the same effects will make them as good/popular as the original performer. It won't. Do something different.

Lord Freddie wrote:These people assume the same effects will make them as good/popular as the original performer. It won't. Do something different.

Would you consider the same effect presented in a completely different way to be something different?

A method is just a means to an end, the presentation is what makes it truly special in my mind. If you are using someone else's method then there is no problem but to be truly great if the original was performed alongside it should be virtually unrecognisable.

Lord Freddie wrote:I came to the conclusion that Stacey was new to this because she completely missed the point of my post and has an extremely Rose tinted view of things.

Try this:
Come up with a good idea that's yours.
Show it off at the next "magic meet" you go to.
Then count how many of them are doing it next time you meet up.

There are so many people around who don't care about art or doing something fresh, they just want attention and to be in the limelight, no matter what it takes to get them there.

When Derren Brown appeared, every two-bit magician put down their cards and proclaimed themselves to be a "psychological illusionist" and blathered on about NLP with a batch of envelopes under their arm. Everytime there is a David Blaine special there is a rush to buy the same effects...

The point that Stacey ("that's not my name!") missed is I was stating that a huge part of magic is the element of surprise, so if you are adding to your act effects that have just been seen by millions on national television, the audience will know the ending and will look for method. These people assume the same effects will make them as good/popular as the original performer. It won't. Do something different.

Then its my bad for misunderstanding a little too - I get the if you do something good / SLIGHTLY different then people will copy it, often claiming it was their idea ... but if its going to add to the enjoyment of the audience, isnt that ok?

Prime example - I was playing pool earlier today and showed a friend a card trick (amb card - my standard routine) and a few other people had a mooch in and were blown away "oh my god, it was in his mouth, thats crazy" etc etc (The normal kind of reaction, amazing, for such a trick). THEN I was TOLD (yes, TOLD) by one of these other spectators to put his phone into his beer bottle, just like Dynamo ... My reply was that I didnt want to break his phone or risk getting his phone wet etc. (which got the reaction of "well, if you cant do it, he must be better than you ... I guess thats why he is on TV and you are not")

However, if I went back tomorrow and saw that same guy, and put his phone into a bottle, wouldnt that make me a better magician to him and all watching? (and potentially earn me more gigs / more money / a better reputation because they are seeing what was on TV in their hands, with their phone / coin / wallet etc?).

I know I'm just using the TV magician as an example here, but isnt it true in all wakes of life? if Kanye West wears a certain pair of glasses in a music video suddenly everyone wears them to be cool, if David Beckham wears a new pair of trainers, all the kids suddenly want them ... isnt it natural for magicians to want to do the same? if people have seen a trick on TV they expect it of you as a fellow magician to be able to do it too?

I do get your point, and agree with you - I guess I'm playing devils advocate, but its always good to have a right good debate

Dan

It would make you look like a poor Dynamo.
If you have original stuff that they haven't seen before they will want to see more of YOU rather than ask you to repeat something someone else has done.

For instance, if you were in a band and people called out for other artists songs, would you go away and learn a weak cover version or come up with your own which is unique?

I understand the point regarding people modifying tricks to their own presentation, but many magicians just copy patter as is without any concession to originality.

A_n_t wrote:Would you consider the same effect presented in a completely different way to be something different?

More importantly, would your audience?

I think there's a presentation/method axis upon which originality hangs...

If you wanted to do a 'lie detector' routine and used a Kurotsuke-style method to do so people would just point towards Brown. However, if you really wanted to do one (and there's no reason anyone shouldn't just because Brown has done it) and do so with a different method and 'wrapping' then I say you're fine.

When I do a Psychic Murder Mystery dinner party I use a Kurotsuke-style effect to select a murderer from the guests. Same 'trick' totally different presentation and no "oh, that's just like Dezza B* did a few years back".

* Don't ask

Lord Freddie wrote:It would make you look like a poor Dynamo.
If you have original stuff that they haven't seen before they will want to see more of YOU rather than ask you to repeat something someone else has done.

For instance, if you were in a band and people called out for other artists songs, would you go away and learn a weak cover version or come up with your own which is unique?

I understand the point regarding people modifying tricks to their own presentation, but many magicians just copy patter as is without any concession to originality.

I still get bloody asked if I can walk on the Thames though...

Yeah, with a bloody tv budget I blimming could!

Kudos to the guy though. He is where a lot of us want to be!