talkmagic.co.uk

Hi guys,

I'm sure this may have been covered elsewhere? if so please move or delete.

Just a few quick questions.

When you watch a magic DVD Whats most important to you? apart from the effects themselves of course?

Is it the the level of production quality? the information on the otherside of magic (people skills/approach etc?) the performance, detail of explanation and teaching? Or how about seeing the magic performed live or in studio? You get the idea!

I know all these things are important but what stands out what would you like to see more or less of from magic productions?

Or whats missing these days?

Thanks in advance.

Lee.

Real world performances are always a plus. I'd much rather see an effect "fry" someone, than see some guy tell you that the effect he came up with fries people.

I also much prefer the "two hander" explanations, with the lead performer discussing the method with another performer. I always feel that you have to be a positively interstellar teacher in order to handle the instruction on your own. Michael Close has made the point that you get a lot of magicians that are fantastic performers but can't teach for toffee, and a lot of great teachers who don't know squat about performing magic in the real world.

I've never seen it done, but what I'd really like to see is a video that features a performer instructing a couple of students of varying skill.

I'm a big sucker for the hidden curriculum stuff. I always feel like I'm getting added value when I get to see the performer's thinking in action, what their performance philosophy is, and so on. Also, those little finesses that are valuable in and of themselves, but demonstrate that the performer really uses the material, and hasn't churned something out for some extra cash.

High production values are nice, but ought to be the icing on the cake. I'm always impressed by BBM's design values, but they don't always match the effects, in style or quality.

If you want to appear professional, pay professionals to film, edit, title and press your product.

If you want to appear like an amateur chancing his arm on getting a few rubes to buy a well marketed DVD, then film it on your phone, or get your mate to.

I feel most UK DVDs of late are the latter. No lighting, c*** (not the best) sound, clearly shot my the performer's mate with a camcorder. I won't name names, but I can't remember the last decent UK DVD I bought.

I'd like to say production value doesn't - and shouldn't - count, and its the strength of the method and effects that matter. I used to think that, until I bought Jermay's Skullduggery. Whilst the material is good, cor blimey the production is bad. Didn't think it would put me off in the way it did.

Its good but not essential to me to see the tricks performed live, and the detail of explanation can never be too....well, too detailed.

Only partly agree with screwystewie. Of course, if you want to appear professional, call in a team that knows what their doing. However, what is the purpose of this DVD? It's an instructional presentation... not a showreel. Far too many recent DVDs seem to have too much ego-building fluff on there from the performer. They are not rock-stars OR a models! I wish they would just get to the point (which is what I've paid for). At least they don't include life-size signed posters with their releases I guess.

I really don't believe the cost of high production is necessary here... and definitely should not be passed onto the consumer if the performer REALLY wants to go down that route. I don't think a steady camera, decent lighting and clear / consistent audio is too much too ask for without it stepping into the world of high-production.

Agree with the value in the "two-hander" presentation - with ideas bouncing between the teacher and "other person" (in whatever role they are taking). Live performance followed by explanation is always a great format - but it would be great to then have the same live performance repeated again after the explanation, with a audio commentary from the performer (like most movie DVDs have now with the cast and director just chatting about what was going on during the scene).

Finally, If the instruction contains new sleights, memorisation, lists or anything which is worthy of taking notes over - a PDF on the disc with all the necessaries in a usable format would be great. As I watch a DVD, I tend to take notes in short-form on my iPhone, which allows me to take the main points away for reference and study at any time.



G

grant_m23 wrote: I don't think a steady camera, decent lighting and clear / consistent audio is too much too ask for without it stepping into the world of high-production.

To be clear, I wasn't calling for everyone to pay Scorsese to direct their DVD on rubber bands. More trying to call out for a magician to actually pay an expert to do the job.

We are OUTRAGED when little Tommy Noexperience snaffles a gig from us because he will work for 50p, however, when we make DVDs we get Tommy Noexperience to film our stuff!

Tang of double standards there.

Same with websites, business cards etc. Everyone tries to cut corners, borrow a friend's camera, or copy of dreamweaver, and knock up something themselves.

I am not asking for the profit to be wasted on 3D camera whizzing round a model of you rendered in Maya. Just, you know, pay a professional to shoot and edit it.

Ok, agree with you on that screwystewie... I maybe had something in my head a little beyond what you were referring to

G

i tell you what i find important on a magical dvd. Easy, simple Navigation. sometimes you get one that makes learning hard work.

also, slights and moves could be shot in slow mo, so that if you need to pause a picture to check finger positions, you can . Many times, you go to pause it... and you miss. what a pain that is.

One of the most annoying things for me with respect to lower budget DVDs is a short title page animation or background music. To have it repeat over and over everytime you select another option winds me up.

I find the explinations and other ideas very helpful as well if htey include other handling techs, as well if htey talk about issues you may come across and ways to deal with them.

Presentation is important and videos I find teach better than books as you can see how its suppose to look vs a diagram or picture.

Oh, I love this topic.

What I don't want is a long boring intro that has nothing to do with magic. If I wanted a mini movie in an artsy fartsy fashion I would pay for one.

What I do want is a professional looking, professionaly shot video.

A live performance for me is not an issue perhaps that is a good idea for an advert for the product. But once I own it, I'll get my own responses.

If absolutuly necessary it would be nice if all of these were grouped together and clearly marked as performance only. In that way those of us who realize only the best performances are going to make it onto the tape can ignore that entire segment. Perhaps even on a different disk. Oooh that would be nice.

I want something that is easy to navigate. Recently I got a great dvd on magic but it was really hard to go from one point to another. I had to click to exit what I was in, then I had to exit the 'catagory' I was in, then I had to click back to the main menu. Then click the title I wanted which brought me to another menu and then I had to choose again from there what I wanted. And then click again to make it actually go.

I have no idea what goes into one of these things, but there has to be an easier way then the above. Oh and rather than just end, once you got to the end of the presentation or instructions it would just loop, and I would have to go through all the gyrations to get it to stop.

Fortunatly the content was excellent so I stuck with it.

A blooper reel should be manditory. Not of a performance but of all the funny mishaps that went into making the tape.

Thanks guys,

Some interesting ideas here.

For me Derren's video (The Devil's Picturebook) is an excellent example of a video that demonstrates technique well, proves that it convinces a real audience and further illustrates one person's take on a live presentation.

Decent but budget production values; very high-quality content.

It is *perfectly* possible to produce a video like this without involving a professional. Read a magazine or two on video techniques, watch/read a few websites and run a few practice takes and you'll be fine.

Everyone who knows about this stuff (and I include myself), will bang on about lighting. This is what really separates the amateurs from the pros. When professionals use hand-held cameras etc for that faux-amateur look, their lighting is still excellent.

And here's a tip - acquire two inexpensive digital video cameras and video each performance or demo from different angles. You can then cut between them to show a long shot or a close-up, without breaking up the narration.

Lights don't have to be expensive. You can buy a pair of 400W halogens and a roll of blue gel for around £30 if you use a DIY store and not a photography supplier.

Cheers,
T.

Another one who's loving this thread, had to have a good old think about this.
Of all my DVDs, there's a few key elements that make certain ones 'great' (ignoring the actual effects).

Alakazam have an excellent habit of using a well structured 'multi-person' explanation which I enjoy immensely and find equally useful. The magician(s) besides the creator of the effect tend to play the part of me, asking questions about sleights, hypothetical 'what ifs' and often even offer their own takes on moves or the effect in general.
When done well (Get Nyman, The Director's Cut, Your Thoughts are Mine) it's invaluable. When done badly (Banachek's Psi Series) it's annoying.

Also, echoing Dale's point about navigation.... quite often I'll want to see a certain part of the explanation again (and again) until I get it. Some really thoughtful chapter points would be really lovely. All it would require is a little forethought at the point of DVD authoring and I think the pay-off would be substantial in terms of customer satisfaction. It wouldn't hurt to even mention, during the explanation, that there's a chapter 'point' so that you can just skip back with one press of the remote without having to annoyingly rewind etc. People watching that will recognise the thought that's gone into the product even if they might not use it.

I think a live performance is a good thing.
Yes, I like Jay Sankey, but man is that, "oh we'll just say he chose this card thing is annoying" - he could at least get someone to pick a card! (maybe I'll volunteer my self at Blackpool).
On the other end, Greg Wilson's stuff - he shows a few performances, so you can see different reactions, get an idea of handling etc...
maybe this is me, but yes I like books, I like to make up my own presentations, but also if you see someone else's you can tweak it, spark an idea off - and the more you do it, the more it becomes you. I do recapped and at the beginning, it was kinda similar to whats on the dvd 100 goes later, and it's a different effect almost.

Now onto the explanations, the Jay Sankey - I know what I'm talking about and I'm going to tell you is much better than the Greg Wilson, I'll just speed through this as if you don't really care, and then we can quickly get back to some more performances, approach.
Not too bothered about the multi-person explanantions - sometimes the presenters just seem to be making each other laugh, and messing around - on my time!!

Like the idea of a set of pdf notes to print out and read through too - watch the performance and the explanation, then have some notes to learn through properly away from the screen, you can check the dvd again if you are stuck - like that a lot actually.

My desert island dvds, (which should probably be a new thread too)
Jay Sankey - Front Row Sankey - wowza
David Stone - Real Secrets of Magic 1 and 2
These three are essentially my working repetoire.

The list continues from here though...