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by **Ted** » Apr 26th, '11, 12:01

The original question was about working out methods from performances. My view, which has been pretty much covered by others, is that there are two main elements here: method and effect.

If you copy someone's effect, without changing the presentation, then that's similar to a comedian using another's material - not illegal but pretty low and not likely to gain the copier much recognition. It doesn't even matter if you're using the same method, to be honest.

Sometimes the 'thief' can gain more recognition that the originator. A performer who is brilliant at marketing might be able to steal ideas from more imaginative performers with a lower profile. I remember an episode on Jonathan Creek where the mainstream magician steals a banana-based effect from an 'underground' magic performance and performs it on telly. That's just a fictional example, but I'm sure similar things have happened in reality.

If you see someone's effect, work out *a* method (not necessarily *the* method - how can you know for sure?) and then create your own presentation then in my opinion it's OK to perform this. Should you then go on to publish that method and effect, the onus is on you to research the effect that inspired you, in case it uses the same method. Obviously you should not publish someone else's method without permission and crediting.

For example, Derren Brown performed a living and dead test on his Tricks of the Mind series. You can just about see the method if you know what to look for. If you think you know the method, and start performing a similar effect (but dressed not as a photo-based living and dead test), then good for you. But if you then wanted to publish your routine you're on stickier ground.

That's how I see it, anyway.
T.

by **Jean** » Apr 26th, '11, 13:16

Personally I steal money from magic creators then use it to buy their effects.

by **Erwin** » Apr 26th, '11, 15:55

Well, maybe my last post was misconstrued as sarcasm. I did say thanks for the clarification and acknowledge that I have misinterpreted copyright disclaimers all these years. But "boom" and "point" indeed. :lol:

But if we're all prepared to admit that we have at some point in our lives violated copyright law (remember when "home taping [was] killing music - and it's illegal"?), then I'm even more confused about the difference between the violations we acknowledge having committed and how we consider torrents theft? Is it just a question of scale?

As far as the original question goes, Dean Dill's Box drove me crazy and I dug and dug through rope effects until I found the workings in a Harry Lorayne book I already owned! I perform it as per one of the suggestions in Mr Lorayne's book, and it's a good little trick, but not a patch on Dean's version. It was Dean Dill's idea to present it inside a miraculous box, and if I was to make my own "Dean's Box" it's likely no layman I showed it to would know any different, but I'd know I was a little weaselly snake. If I want to present it like Dean, I'll have to stump up the cash and pay him. Now what if one appears on eBay, not a knock-off but a genuine box from the Dean Dill workshop? I'd buy it - would that be unethical? The creator did get paid for that box, but buying it second hand means he won't be selling a brand new one to me. I honestly have no idea where to stand on this scenario.

by **Ted** » Apr 26th, '11, 15:59

Erwin wrote:Now what if one appears on eBay, not a knock-off but a genuine box from the Dean Dill workshop? I'd buy it - would that be unethical? The creator did get paid for that box, but buying it second hand means he won't be selling a brand new one to me. I honestly have no idea where to stand on this scenario.

Ah, well buying second-hand is a different issue to working out effects. There's at least one old thread on this very subject: http://www.talkmagic.co.uk/ftopic14800-0-0-asc-.php

by **jim ferguson** » Apr 27th, '11, 23:46

Out of interest, has anyone here had any of their ideas stolen before ? I dont think Id be happy with performing an effect of my own to some magicians, only to find them all using it a week later. If they had the courtesy to ask if they could use it Id happily oblige. But to just think it is theirs to use because they worked it out is, in my opinion, plain rude.

jim

by **Beardy** » Apr 27th, '11, 23:58

jim ferguson wrote:Out of interest, has anyone here had any of their ideas stolen before ?

Yep! One has even been publised by a fairly popular magician! I made the mistake of sharing the method and idea with this person and "woosh". It was released

But on the same token, I've nicked other people's ideas and performed them! It's all swings and roundabouts in the magic world! I don't get upset about it. It's only a trick!

by **jim ferguson** » Apr 28th, '11, 00:04

Beardy wrote:Yep! One has even been publised by a fairly popular magician! I made the mistake of sharing the method and idea with this person and "woosh". It was released

by **Beardy** » Apr 28th, '11, 00:07

jim ferguson wrote:
Beardy wrote:Yep! One has even been publised by a fairly popular magician! I made the mistake of sharing the method and idea with this person and "woosh". It was released
Arent you pi**ed off ? Did he credit you for the effect ? If that was me Id have been raging As I said before, nothing wrong with asking first out of respect.

Nah, I've said it many times before and I'll say it again. It's only a bleedin' magic trick! There are worst things in the world! I've been through a lot of sh!t this year and I really don't care! It's a magic trick for pete's sake! haha!

I just see it as me giving them "inspiration" to make a cr@ppier version of my effect!

by **jim ferguson** » Apr 28th, '11, 20:42

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one :lol:

jim

by **Mandrake** » Apr 28th, '11, 22:17

What goes around comes around so the miscreant will probably get their comeuppance in some other way - with interest!

by **Lady of Mystery** » May 1st, '11, 08:16

I think we all borrow ideas off of other people, we do it all the time. Seeing and effect being performed and working out a method to do something similar isn't really stealing in my opinion. Ripping off someone's work and then selling it as your own without giving credit is a different thing though.

I've recently heard of a rather well known mentalist who has included a routine that sounds very similar to my Where? routine from Mind Fluff in his lectures. I've not seen the lecture so I don't know if the method is the same but it's rather coincidental that he was one of the people who recieved a preview copy of the book. But I can't be bothered to kick up a fuss about it, there are more important things in life. Besides that routine, as with most routines that people think up was based on an idea that's been around for years.

by **jim ferguson** » May 1st, '11, 16:03

Some great responses in this thread guys, thanks for your input

As I mentioned in a previous post I used to do the very thing we're talking about, though my views have now changed. The way I see it is if someone comes up with an effect or a novel use for an old principle, or even subtleties and 'bits of bisiness', it is usually because they want something that is unique to them. They dont want to do it the same as everyone else, and why would they ? If everyone else starts copying them then it is no longer unique. There are more than enough effects out there, be it in books or off the shelf, for us to use and work on - theres no need to steal something we saw from a fellow magician.jim

by **mdawg** » Jul 26th, '11, 18:25

With regards to the Daniel Madison effect and the DB effect. I purchased the Daniel Madison ebook after seeing the DB effect but I am not so sure if irreversible was available prior to me seeing the DB routine.

Either way Irreversible was slightly different ( I think anyway, Lost the PDF on an old HDD)

by **spooneythegoon** » Jul 26th, '11, 19:00

Beardy wrote:
jim ferguson wrote:Out of interest, has anyone here had any of their ideas stolen before ?

Yep! One has even been publised by a fairly popular magician! I made the mistake of sharing the method and idea with this person and "woosh". It was released

Ah, but now you can illegally download it to find out how you did it! :wink:

by **hds02115** » Jul 26th, '11, 22:55

I've not read all the posts here as there are a fair few, but what would you consider this to be?

If you see an effect you like, you work out your own method for accomplishing this effect, and when you do find out the original method the magician used it's different? So in the end, you have an effect that looks either the same or quite similar, however the methods are completely different? What are your views on that?

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