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Alec Kobain wrote:If someone needed a boost to help them quit smoking and hypnosis helps that then it proves 100% that hypnosis works.

I'm not sure that proves 100% hypnosis "works". It proves that having a chat with someone about why smoking is bad and visualising a life free of tobacco in a deeply relaxed state helps focus your will power to quit smoking. Doesn't it?

Alec Kobain wrote: If you were to offer someone a sugar cube and say 'there you go, you now no longer smoke' that's two completely different things.

My point is that both are placebos. (I put sugar cube, but meant to put sugar pill, my bad). What makes one placebo alright to charge for?

Alec Kobain wrote:If hypnosis appears to work then you could, and many of us are, argue that it works. DESPITE how it works!

Well yes, but we're magicians. So therefore should be interested in how it works. I agree with the fact it works in the same way a placebo does.

Alec Kobain wrote:It's because of our differing opinions that the upcoming shows will be all the more enjoyable.

Absolutely. Differing opinions are what make discussions interesting.

MisterRawlings wrote:Here's a cool trailer for 'The Experiments'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnV5PL228ug&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Nice, looks great.

Well, glad you finally agree it works, regardless of how. If it's a placebo effect, it still worked because it managed to trigger something in the individual strong enough to fight their own usual character traits or addictions etc etc.

I don't see the harm in charging people if the effect is to positively enhance their lives. Goods and services aren't free y'know. I only need water to quench my thirst, but sometimes the brain tells me another drink would quench it better, it wouldn't, not really...but if my brain/body craves it and it seems to 'do the trick' then it's worked better for me than something else. Our brains trick us all the time, everything we do is dependant on how our brain interprets things, even everything we see is a trick. Colours, shades, light, movement, image orientation, optical illusions. 'Hypnosis' is another way to trick our brains, or arguably for us to trick ourselves - but that still has an effect, so it could be said it works in that sense and therefore 'exists'.

Of course lying to someone to say something cures cancer when it doesn't is completely shameful and COMPLETELY different to hypnotherapy. The first will not work (it is said however 'positive' thoughts can lessen cancer's hold, but let's say we're talking about something very terminal and that the body is completely cancer ridden with no chance of survival) and therefore it's horrible to cash in on someone looking for a miracle. The second works. So that's why it's different, which is really quite obvious to me, but apparently not you, but we are of course two different people...

Dye Vernon wrote:

MisterRawlings wrote:Here's a cool trailer for 'The Experiments'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnV5PL228ug&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Nice, looks great.

Those robotic people are freaky!

Dye Vernon wrote:
I'm not sure that proves 100% hypnosis "works". It proves that having a chat with someone about why smoking is bad and visualising a life free of tobacco in a deeply relaxed state helps focus your will power to quit smoking. Doesn't it?
.

The difference of opinion we are having is highlighted by the quote from you above. I'll see if you can pick the bones from it.
Alec

MisterRawlings wrote:Well, glad you finally agree it works, regardless of how.

I always said it "works" in as much as taking a pill coated with sugar "works".

MisterRawlings wrote:I don't see the harm in charging people if the effect is to positively enhance their lives.

I didn't say there was any harm, per se. You said you thought it was wrong to offer a placebo cure for cancer. I am asking for what the difference is between a placebo for cancer or a placebo for shyness.

MisterRawlings wrote: Goods and services aren't free y'know.

Can't remember seeing anyone suggesting they are?

MisterRawlings wrote:Of course lying to someone to say something cures cancer when it doesn't is completely shameful and COMPLETELY different to hypnotherapy.

What if the person isn't lying? What if, in their heart of hearts, they really believe in whatever b*ll*cks they are doing?

There have been many instances where the power of nothing but positive thought helps to fight cancer. Why is that not OK, but hypnosis is?

If they believe in their heart of hearts it will cure cancer, then they are mental, but perhaps forgiven for trying to make a profit from it - however you'd have to ask if its moral to sell something which costs basically nothing to make at high prices. Hypnotherapists charge, but it costs a lot of time and money to learn how to do it correctly, so there's a reason it costs money.

When did I say positive thought to fight cancer was not okay? I never said that, you actually just see what you want to see - very odd.

Finally, do you actually not see there being a difference between a placebo cure for cancer (I think you'd be hard pressed to find instances where placebos have helped cure cancer btw) and placebo cure for shyness? Do you honestly not see the massive difference? You actually frighten me.

MisterRawlings wrote:If they believe in their heart of hearts it will cure cancer, then they are mental, but perhaps forgiven for trying to make a profit from it - however you'd have to ask if its moral to sell something which costs basically nothing to make at high prices. Hypnotherapists charge, but it costs a lot of time and money to learn how to do it correctly, so there's a reason it costs money.

When did I say positive thought to fight cancer was not okay? I never said that, you actually just see what you want to see - very odd.

Finally, do you actually not see there being a difference between a placebo cure for cancer (I think you'd be hard pressed to find instances where placebos have helped cure cancer btw) and placebo cure for shyness? Do you honestly not see the massive difference? You actually frighten me.

Sorry, I misread what you said about cancer. We got sidetracked. Let's get back to this point:

"It's a wonderful tool and should be used in all ways possible. If it helps someone quit smoking, great. If it helps a shy person get in touch with a more outgoing personality then once again, it's a great thing. "

So, hypnosis is effectively a placebo. Right?

So it's therefore OK for me to sell homeopathy sugar pills that cure people of shyness or help people stop smoking?

Actually, the point is Derren Brown's new shows but as we seem to be unable to keep to that topic.....