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Dye Vernon wrote:

Alec Kobain wrote:If it doesn't exist then Paul McKenna is a very fortunate man to have found so many people willing to play along.

Alec

He sure is. It's amazing what people will do when they believe you have a power. See any religion you like as an example.

Well you've just proven what I was saying Derren was getting at. If people believe and have expectations that a hypnotist can hypnotise them and it works, then it's not exactly that it doesn't exist, because it just worked.

Relaxation techniques, pre-supposition, suggestibility, they all 'exist' and can have an effect on people; whether that's because humans are programmable, trances exist or that it was all just in the mind of the participant is irrelevant and will never be known fully 100% - all we do know is, it seemed to work, so who cares?

MisterRawlings wrote:

Dye Vernon wrote:

Alec Kobain wrote:If it doesn't exist then Paul McKenna is a very fortunate man to have found so many people willing to play along.

Alec

He sure is. It's amazing what people will do when they believe you have a power. See any religion you like as an example.

Well you've just proven what I was saying Derren was getting at. If people believe and have expectations that a hypnotist can hypnotise them and it works, then it's not exactly that it doesn't exist, because it just worked.

Relaxation techniques, pre-supposition, suggestibility, they all 'exist' and can have an effect on people; whether that's because humans are programmable, trances exist or that it was all just in the mind of the participant is irrelevant and will never be known fully 100% - all we do know is, it seemed to work, so who cares?

Hypnosis absolutely does work.

It just may be that it doesn't work in the way some people may think.

I'm no expert but would wager that it effects all people differently. It's a wonderful tool and should be used in all ways possible. If it helps someone quit smoking, great. If it helps a shy person get in touch with a more outgoing personality then once again, it's a great thing.

The mystery and hype of hypnosis certainly does go a long way in paving the hypnotic path. Long may that continue!

Dye, have a great day.

Alec

Doctors are not allowed to hand out sugar cubes and say they will cure shyness.

Just a thought for you.

I fully agree with Alec ! We are both starting our journey into hypnosis so we are both reading/watching alot on the subject and i dont think its just always people playing along, i have a friend who is the "know it all" of the group and loves googling or grabbing probs to catch me out and tell the others, i hypnotised him and stuck his hand to his leg ! if there was anyone who would have loved nothing more to look at me like im a fool and just move his hand to show me up its him but he couldnt ! He was really trying and still couldnt do it and theres no way he was playing around to make me look good lol.

Dye have you got any practical or theory experiance with or of hypnosis apart from Derrens book ?

Dye Vernon wrote:Doctors are not allowed to hand out sugar cubes and say they will cure shyness.

Just a thought for you.

Doctors can't hand anything out and say it will cure anything, because it might not. They give stuff out saying it should lessen symptoms. Plus, of course doctors wouldn't give out sugar cubes, so but that's a terrible example. However, some doctors will recommend hypnotherapy.

jon_kent wrote:Dye have you got any practical or theory experiance with or of hypnosis apart from Derrens book ?

Derren's book doesn't even outright say it definitely DOESN'T exist. After he states about how he's unsure whether a trance etc is really something that happens or not, he then goes on to tell you how to do hypnosis (well no exact scripts, just about pacing, leading, presupposition, post hypnotic suggestion etc) and about how, as a massive nerd, he managed to make sporty people at his Uni do crazy things and states how he had 'control' over them. He leaves it ambiguous, because the subject is, but he doesn't definitely outright say it's all b*ll*cks.

Dye Vernon wrote:Doctors are not allowed to hand out sugar cubes and say they will cure shyness.

Just a thought for you.

Response 1> Because modern medicine is almost entirely based upon using specific licenced chemicals to treat specific symptoms; doctors are generally prevented from going outside that area.

Response 2> It would be highly unusual for a doctor to do anything more than prescribe whatever the latest fancy chemical a sales rep had wined and dined him to promote. (Yes, really.) That a doctor would genuinely try non-chemical means such as attempting to trigger the placebo effect in a patient is strange considering how powerful we know the placebo effect can be.

Response 3> There are many non-pharmaceutical medicines which have unquestionable efficiacy, miniscule cost and virtually no side effects (various preparations and vectors for cannabis, for example) and not only do doctors not prescribe them, they often actively support their prohibition. Cannabis - known efficiacy for symptoms in cancer, MS, arthritis and other immune disorders, chronis pain, depression, hyperactivity, diabetes and more. Ayahuasca - known to be effective as a single-episode cure for addictions to such things as alcohol, heroin and more.

Summary> In short - what doctors won't/can't do is in itself NOT a useful yardstick about whether something is useful, ethical or effective.


Or to put a more Bill Hicks spin with a Dara Ó Brian twist on things:
Now... I'm no quack, witch doctor, homeopath, horseshit peddlar... but...
Anyway - I don't have a horse in this race - but the "doctors" line needed answering.

jon_kent wrote:I fully agree with Alec ! We are both starting our journey into hypnosis so we are both reading/watching alot on the subject and i dont think its just always people playing along

And you are more than entitled to that opinion.

I'll go with Derren's opinion though, as he as a little more experience.

The point about the doctor was if hypnosis is a placebo, which I think we can all agree it is, then doctors are not allowed to give placebos and tell people they do something. (Hence my sugar cube thing). If you take money from someone to "hypnotise" them to cure they shyness, I think that's wrong.

You are all more than allowed to disagree. I'd like you to explain why, if hypnosis is a placebo, that people are allowed, nay, encouraged to extract money from folk for giving them a placebo.

Dye Vernon wrote:I'll go with Derren's opinion though, as he as a little more experience.

I dont know if you was being sarcastic or not with that answer (i'd imagine so)

So my other question was have you got any other knowledge about hypnosis apart from one mans opinion ?

Have you practised any hypnosis and put anyone under or "pretending" ?

I await your pedantic witty reply but im guessing the answers no.

Derrens new show is about hynotising someone to kill a celebrity do you think they are going to be playing along trying to kill someone ?

Or the heist was people "pretending to rob money ?

Have my posts been ignored? I have said several times now that what Dye is saying Derren said is not exact at all. He's saying Derren unequivocally says hypnosis doesn't exist. But that's just completely wrong. Read the chapter again.

Yes he does say that it's unproven, he isn't sure why it works and thinks it's more likely people playing along in most cases, but he also states the amazing results he's had with it, which he isn't sure can be explained to just people 'playing along'. No one will ever know for sure, and he is very careful to highlight that. You're saying Derren Brown has stated it's a fact hypnosis doesn't exist at all, in any way, shape or form, he does not say that and I'd be very careful about how you paraphrase and misquote people to try and make your own personal beliefs validated for the sake of winning an argument. This might work with a certain crowd of people who have little knowledge of the subject you are talking about, but I don't think that it's going to work here.

It just so happens I agree with what Derren says about it (and what Dye is trying to get at, but is off the mark), but that doesn't mean to say it doesn't exist because it WORKS. Regardless of why, whether it's a 'placebo' effect or not, it's working. If a hypnotist charges someone to cure them of a phobia or addiction, and in actual fact realistically it's just the same as giving someone a placebo, if it works, it works. If they have now gotten over something which is stopping them from living their life fully or they have quit a costly addiction or greatly reduced health risks by paying a hypnotherapist for treatment, then what the heck is wrong with that? It's only bad when 'psychic healers' or homoeopathic 'remedies' claim to cure things, serious things, like cancer and then the person still dies from it. That's very wrong. However that's getting away from the point of this discussion, which is one person saying hypnosis doesn't exist, and several others disagreeing. I have absolutely no problem with you believing it doesn't exist and I can't 100% say you're wrong, because it's not something that has been proven either way yet. What I do disagree with is that you're saying 'It doesn't exist, I know so because Derren said so!' - even if Derren does say that (which he didn't) that's one persons opinion.

Derren Brown's new shows are about human nature and how 'easy' it is to get people to act in what could be considered evil ways. It apparently doesn't take much at all. But the things that happen require certain conditions, psychological conditioning, levels of suggestibility, believed anonymity and situations which cause inconsistencies in standard human behaviour, perhaps tapping into a deeper more subconscious part of our animal brains. You could certainly call this a type of 'hypnosis' in which a certain special state of behaviour has been triggered, arguably against the participants will, due to the conditioning created by the leader of the experiment; Derren Brown, the 'Hypnotist'.

jon_kent wrote:Derrens new show is about hynotising someone to kill a celebrity do you think they are going to be playing along trying to kill someone ?

Or the heist was people "pretending to rob money ?

Basically, yes. But it's totally OK for you to think something else. We're all allowed our opinions and they are all equally valid.

MisterRawlings wrote:It just so happens I agree with what Derren says about it (and what Dye is trying to get at, but is off the mark), but that doesn't mean to say it doesn't exist because it WORKS. Regardless of why, whether it's a 'placebo' effect or not, it's working. If a hypnotist charges someone to cure them of a phobia or addiction, and in actual fact realistically it's just the same as giving someone a placebo, if it works, it works. If they have now gotten over something which is stopping them from living their life fully or they have quit a costly addiction or greatly reduced health risks by paying a hypnotherapist for treatment, then what the heck is wrong with that? It's only bad when 'psychic healers' or homoeopathic 'remedies' claim to cure things, serious things, like cancer and then the person still dies from it. That's very wrong.

The mind is an amazingly powerful thing, no doubt. And when we believe in something, it is amazing what it can do.

Your point is interesting. It's not OK for a homeopathist (is that a word? ) to sell someone a placebo cancer cure, but it is ok for someone to sell someone a placebo shyness cure?

I am not sure I see the difference?

If someone needed a boost to help them quit smoking and hypnosis helps that then it proves 100% that hypnosis works. If you were to offer someone a sugar cube and say 'there you go, you now no longer smoke' that's two completely different things.

Dye, have you ever studied any form of Hypnosis? I ask only due to the fact that you seem to have tunnel vision on this subject. Maybe you just have the bit between your teeth due to being challenged by a number of members here. No one has said that they ate disagreeing with you, it's just you apparently being closed minded to the possibilities of hypnosis, wether you believe it is real or not.

When is a circle a circle? When it is round.

If hypnosis appears to work then you could, and many of us are, argue that it works. DESPITE how it works!
It's because of our differing opinions that the upcoming shows will be all the more enjoyable. You may watch them and think that the subjects, such as me, are playing along. If so, that's fine. Is it not still a strain of hypnosis? Of course it is.

Alec

Dye Vernon wrote:

MisterRawlings wrote:It just so happens I agree with what Derren says about it (and what Dye is trying to get at, but is off the mark), but that doesn't mean to say it doesn't exist because it WORKS. Regardless of why, whether it's a 'placebo' effect or not, it's working. If a hypnotist charges someone to cure them of a phobia or addiction, and in actual fact realistically it's just the same as giving someone a placebo, if it works, it works. If they have now gotten over something which is stopping them from living their life fully or they have quit a costly addiction or greatly reduced health risks by paying a hypnotherapist for treatment, then what the heck is wrong with that? It's only bad when 'psychic healers' or homoeopathic 'remedies' claim to cure things, serious things, like cancer and then the person still dies from it. That's very wrong.

The mind is an amazingly powerful thing, no doubt. And when we believe in something, it is amazing what it can do.

Your point is interesting. It's not OK for a homeopathist (is that a word? ) to sell someone a placebo cancer cure, but it is ok for someone to sell someone a placebo shyness cure?

I am not sure I see the difference?

If you really don't see the difference, you need help. Lots of it.

Here's a cool trailer for 'The Experiments'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnV5PL228ug&feature=youtube_gdata_player