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El Enielator wrote:I dont know, but Just wondering while on the subject,
Do you like the twisting the aces with an elmsley or an ascanio spread. I am starting to prefer the ascanio spread because it is more visually appealing

just curious but how can twisting the aces be done with an ascanio spread?..the purpose of an ascanio spread is to hide a card while showing the others which in the case of twisting the aces would mean that you can only show 3 cards when spread.. where as with an elmsley count all 4(?) cards are shown

dont take this the wrong way but that was nothing like twisting the aces.. especially since you were using 5 cards?? twisting the aces is a classic routine that only uses 4 cards, dont get me wrong its good that your trying different things but i dont see it as an improvement on the original

Can someone who knows the Ascanio PM me please. I used to do a sleight showing 4 of 5 cards in a packet trick some years ago and just want to confirm if that's the Ascanio or not.

First off, and I have posted this elsewhere, please do not do the Elmsley at the finger tips. It is an unnatural movement and handlingof the cards. You could do it flawlessly forever, and never have anyone question you. People may not even consciously think about the fact that you are temporarily holding the cards differently for a counting.

Subconsciously though, I guarantee that it flips a swith in the spectator's brain.

One of my biggest regrets in magic was that I was never able to meet the late, great Dai Vernon. He was a strong advocate, as any capable magician since him is, of naturalness in magic. Anything unatural, no matter how well done, just looks fishy.

That said, please relearn the Elmsley count in the deep grip, to appear as anyone would look if they were counting out a series of cards. If you have a move perfected and invisible, but it looks like a move, you have wasted your time learning it. I did the fingertip Elmsley for years before this was pointed out to me by the late, great Charlie Reese--whom I am fortunate to call one of my mentors.

It's all about simplicity. We have a phrase in the US with teh acronym KISS--Keep It Simple, Stupid. Naturalness (to coin a word, perhaps), is what makes good magic great.

So, that's my 2 cents on the Elmsley.

As far as the Ascanio spread is concerned, whether you decide to use it in either of these routines--and both the Elmsley and the Ascanio spread can be used alternately, the best option, in my opinion--the Ascanio spread is not difficult to learn, and is a great utility move as well as being highly deceptive. Learn it. Period. Learn it.

Thanks for listening to the Crazy American,

Brian Moore!

I would have to agree with Kardtrik, the Elmsley in the deep grip is the most deceptive and natural version. I use this all the time and it looks great in my humble opinion.

I also agree that the more natural you can make your sleights etc the more you will elevate your magic to a higher level and that is not just in my humble opinion but as Kardtrik said it is also the opinion of one of the true masters of magic that ever lived....

JB, I'll have to agree to disagree.

Somewhere else on the forum I've put forward my arguement on the fingertip v in hand Emsley and in my opinion the in hand version isn't as good.

BUT, if we all has the same opinion we'd all be driving round in Ford Fiesta's

Tenko wrote:JB, I'll have to agree to disagree.

Somewhere else on the forum I've put forward my arguement on the fingertip v in hand Emsley and in my opinion the in hand version isn't as good.

BUT, if we all has the same opinion we'd all be driving round in Ford Fiesta's

Sure but the difference is that driving a Ford Fiesta still looks natural because it's just a car! Magic is different because most of the time when you use a sleight like the Elmsley it's in a close-up situation and people notice things like unatural moves....they may or may not say anything but they notice and if they do say something like, I don't know how you did it but your did something, then in my opinion you might as well have not bothered because your are fooling nobody.

Can you stear me to your arguement for the fingertips v in the hand Elmsley so I can read it, you must have a very powerful case for, to stick with it! In my opinion, once you see the in the hands done well, it just looks like you are counting the cards and the fingertips version just looks weird!!... Before you ask, I can do both versions well! I am known as Mr Counts at my local magic club, I have a thing about doing counts well and making them look as natural as poss!

Just my tuppence worth - this discussion has been done before as to which is better - personally, I do the In-hand version - I don't think I have ever seen the finger tip version, but think that the in-hand version looks perfectly natural.
Perhaps someone who is competent at both methods could upload a clip into the file-sharing forum, so we can all decide for ourselves which version we prefer and find more natural.
Personally, I love the in-hand version, but enough people seem to prefer the other method that I am intrigued, and plan to try and learn the finger-tip version.
Bcfaigg