talkmagic.co.uk

On the other hand, all the classic magic textbooks have chapters on mentalism.

Barry

Of course, they do. I'm not sure how that's relevant to JAQK's sweeping statements though...

Their authors regarded mentalism as a field of magic, as do I.

I would agree with that also. I disagree that "you have to be a really good magician to become a good mentalist" and "if you don't know the basics of Magic, it is impossible to be a mentalist!"

Can't argue with that!

We're on the same page then!

All interesting stuff and food for thought guys. It's a strange line I guess. Take Derren for example. People know he can't read minds and has no special powers, (he tells us so often) but he is still billed as a mentalist and mind reader and not a magician. I guess it's the type of magic involved. And you're absolutely right Barry, flicking through Mark Wilson there are plenty of mind reading effects.

You can be whatever you want to be and as long as the audience is entertained by what you're doing then you're doing well. I've mixed the two for years with no problem, I might not mix them in the same show but I love performing with my sponge bunnies as much as I love mentalism. You need to remember that it's only magicians and mentalists that tend to make the definition between the two, to the audience we're all just magicians (how many lay people do you know that talk about Derren as a magician?).

The more Derren tells people that he has no special powers, the more they believe he has! His TV shows usually start with the statement that he uses a mix of talents which includes magic but, despite all this folks think he's somehow superhuman. A great persona to have and nurture indeed!

I've seen many performers mix mentalism with magic but always very carefully routined. I very much doubt you could go onstage as cheerful Uncle Percy wearing a tie festooned with playing cards, producing coloured hankies, rabbits from hats and so on then immediately go into a deep and meaningful mentalism set. Having said that, I'm always ready to be proved wrong!*

*NB Not by you, Mrs.M!

JAQK wrote:Mentalism is part of magic, and mentalist are magicians...
in my understanding, you have to be a really good magician to become a good mentalist, if you don't know the basics of Magic, it is impossible to be a mentalist!

My first post on this forum guys and what a question to start with.

So as someone who has made his living for the past 20 years as a full time mentalist, my answer to this question is this.

Yes you can be both but you need to keep them very separate. John Riggs for example has two persona's to separate his performances, one is John Riggs the other John St Germain.

I am afraid that as soon as you add an obvious magic trick into a mentalism act, and I don't mean using playing cards, I mean for example a torn and restored whatever, a vanish and production or the hippity hoppity rabbits, you will not be seen as a mentalist who can do magic as well, you will be viewed as a magician who does mental tricks as part of his act.

As for the quote above, sorry you are completely wrong, in fact I would go a stage further and say that in order to be a good mentalist and perceived as someone who can really do what you say you can do, you need to shake off the magicians mindset completely and start from scratch.

Again just my opinion.

cheers

Thanks for your input there Scott and welcome to TM, B.I.P. is still one of my favourites!

Not only can you do both I think you SHOULD do both! Nobody is daft enough to believe you read minds anyway unless they come from California! I have explained my reasoning for this before and it is terribly long and complicated so I won't burden you with it now. Or maybe I will if I am in the mood and anybody is interested. I shall merely say that I was highly amused by Bmat's post. I will go and search it out and quote it so I can explain why.

bmat wrote:Of course you can be both. If somebody says different then you know that is not a person to be taking advice from. It gets iffy if you start taking money to do psychic readings. In that scenario you really don't want your clients knowing you are a magician or a mentalist. Lay people don't really know the difference between a mentalist and a magician. Most assume its a trick regardless of what you call yourself. But don't tell the mentalists that. Most are pretty much in denial.

This is what amused me greatly. Not only do my psychic reading clients know I am a magician they rather like it. I sell the svengali decks at psychic fairs and in fact doing so gets me more business as a reader. Figure that one out! I know why it happens but it would take far too much space to explain. Oddly enough clients would be far more wary of a mentalist than a magician. Obvious why if you think about it carefully.

I have also done stage hypnotism demonstrations at psychic fairs but of course that is a different thing entirely. And it did not help the psychic reading business. After doing one of those things people kept well away from my booth for the next hour or so! It did help me to learn stage hypnosis though so that made up for it!

Mandrake wrote:Thanks for your input there Scott and welcome to TM, B.I.P. is still one of my favourites!

Thanks for the welcome. I look forward to some lively debate.

bmat wrote:Of course you can be both. If somebody says different then you know that is not a person to be taking advice from. It gets iffy if you start taking money to do psychic readings. In that scenario you really don't want your clients knowing you are a magician or a mentalist. Lay people don't really know the difference between a mentalist and a magician. Most assume its a trick regardless of what you call yourself. But don't tell the mentalists that. Most are pretty much in denial.

Boy that had me almost choking with laughter.

For the past six and a half years I have worked as a mentalist up and down the Costa del Sol in clubs, show bars and Restaurants for holiday makers. My mentalism act which incorporates playing cards, a blind fold routine, drawing dupe and even some spoon bending, was specifically designed to up sell my tarot readings after the performance which basically doubled my fee for the 3 nights a week I worked. I estimated on another forum that the venues I worked from Nerja to Marbella three nights a week during the 5 month season for nearly 7 years, means that nearly 50,000 people saw my act and tons of them queued for readings afterwards.

Lay people don't really know the difference between a mentalist and a magician. Most assume its a trick regardless of what you call yourself. But don't tell the mentalists that. Most are pretty much in denial.

I really hope this quote doesn't mean you underestimate the intelligence of your audiences. As for being in denial that may be true but it works or me.