talkmagic.co.uk

Every Nov 5, Terry Wogan does "Radio Fireworks" on his show, basically just going "whoosh, ooh, aah". Thing is I can still picture the fireworks.

Mandrake wrote:There’s a old theory which says the scenery, costumes and locations etc on radio are the finest possible, wonderfully realistic and exactly the right type – all because they are created in the individual listener’s mind. Isn’t this also true of mentalism where the real mind magic takes place in the spectators’ minds?

I like that

So do I.

I'm not a vetran of the forum, quite the opposite-- however, I hope my comments may be examined rationally in spite of this. What is the difference between a sleight of hand artist, and a mentalist if both were to claim supernatural mechanisms behind their respective illusions? I have heard the common answer that " everyone knows that teleportation...restoration...ect are impossible", however any of us who have seen the shock, and amazement upon spectator's faces know that at the very least some will not come to such a conclusion-- and I don't speak merely of children . The current trend in rationalism does not give evidence for either feat...but one (using legerdemain in the main)may get away from the skeptical? A claim of using a magic amulet is not as worthy of debunking as one of psychism? Does this not seem inconsistant at the very least? How many people swear by rabbit's feet, bibles ect...? Why don't these get the vitriol psychism claims draw, as both seem equally invalid from a given perspective? I see this as a very important point that must be considered, and hope that others may see it as such as well. Is not deception upon the nature of phenomena worse than that of the more immaterial nomena, given equal end effect, claim, and payment?

Respectfully,

Jack

JackNimbleWhat is the difference between a sleight of hand artist, and a mentalist if both were to claim supernatural mechanisms behind their respective illusions?

Your confusion, in part, centers on how the line of separation between these two fields has been blurred over the past decade or so, as Tv personalities started exploiting the auspices of mentalism and setting it into their magic shows. This has been compounded by a very agressive skeptic's culture that has capitalized on this trend, making the idea of mixing the two "justified" and thus, neutering the psychological dynamics of Mentalism over magic.

Lee Earle explains it this way, The Magician & audience have an understanding that his job is to fool them as a mode of entertainment and they are to suspend their disbelief. The Mentalist on the other hand, invokes an investment of belief, which is the psychological dynamic that sets it apart from the auspices of traditional magic.

You will find that most full-time professionals within mentalism DO NOT use disclaimers and in all truth, few of them are involved with the night club and theater mode of work. They prefer to work the more intimate markets and to NOT sustain the course of what I refer to as the "New School" way of doing things... even when they do the occasional big room program.


JackNimbleThe current trend in rationalism does not give evidence for either feat...but one (using legerdemain in the main)may get away from the skeptical?

Here we have the key... the word "trend" in that this is exactly what it is and as noted in my previous reply, it is something that's been deliberately infused for ulterior purposes and too, it is an attitude that is seriously hurting Mentalism when it comes to its more pure form of performance.

JackNimbleA claim of using a magic amulet is not as worthy of debunking as one of psychism?

I'm not certain where this comes from in that very few would imply the use of some sort of talisman though many within the Psychic & Bizarre side of the craft oft times have insight to such things. What concerns me is the line of "worthy of debunking" in your question as if you are a predator seeking out a victim; an ideology that is quite close to Ian Rowland's encouragement of Psychic Baiting and related cruelties noted in his so-called "Full Facts" book (I still ponder how someone that's never made a living as a Reader can convey the "full facts" on anything.)

Secondly, the whole "debunking" thing that is claimed to be a carry-over from Houdini is far from it! Harry didn't attack all things psychic, spiritual or religious as today's "debunkers" do... the present day agenda of these cynics is nothing short of being evangelism for atheism and has little to nothing to do with consumer protection and everything to do with arrogance and a Napoleon-like psychological condition; the need to suppress those you know won't put up a big fight and thus, allow you to feel superior to.

JackNimbleHow many people swear by rabbit's feet, bibles ect...? Why don't these get the vitriol psychism claims draw, as both seem equally invalid from a given perspective?

Firstly, people of FAITH will rarely surrender that faith. What today's cynics forget is that many of the greatest minds of science were all men of faith and in some instances, members of clergy and yet, you would use their contributions as a weapon against those hosting the same or similar beliefs.

You may have a personal aversion to religion or any example of faith; that is yours and yours alone and you have no right to condemn others that express that faith NO MATTER WHAT IT MAY BE. This is something that today's cynics seem hell-bent to not adhere to, justifying their bold acts of trespass and insult by pointing to their own cohorts in crime, like Penn & Teller and how they do it or New York City's favorite hack and card man who thinks himself a mentalist when in truth, most 8 year olds can do a better job... but then I've always found it fascinating, the scores of self-proclaimed "debunkers" who are little more than failures in legitimate magic.

JackNimbleI see this as a very important point that must be considered, and hope that others may see it as such as well. Is not deception upon the nature of phenomena worse than that of the more immaterial nomena, given equal end effect, claim, and payment?

I see it only as someone's attempt to create an extension to a "debate" that has never and probably will never, bring about the sort of resolution actually INTELLIGENT human beings would find as acceptable. I stress that idea -- Intelligence -- simply because so many skeptics of today believe themselves more intelligent and equate atheism to intellect i.e. intelligent people don't have imaginary friends... when history has proven the exact opposite.

The "deception" you speak of is not all deception and as we know, there are times when you must appeal to a person's belief in order to help them overcome whatever malady it is they are dealing with. I can assure you that the bludgeon you are proposing will only result in the faith filled, digging their heels in and more determined to reject your proposition... I've watched this happen more than a few times over the years.

On the other hand, I've found that spoon feeding them by apparently being one of them, brings about far more positive results i.e. the bees & honey trap vs. the use of vinegar, as most cynics seem to prefer.

When you (the cynic) learn to see and understand mysticism for what it is and recognize that the "deeper mysteries" explain away all the boogieman or "exoteric" points of view, revealing the SCIENCE behind it all, then you will discover that you're preaching to the choir. The thing is, most human beings are not ready to accept those deeper truths, they need crutches; faith in the more mystical vs. the logical. NO ONE has the right to take that from them, nor can you, until they are ready to graduate from these "outer" levels of elementary perspective and delve into the "forbidden" side of things where all is revealed. I speak of those occult mysteries like Mathematics, Linguistics, Psychology, Chemistry, Music, higher levels of Philosophy and the "7 Keys" of understanding such materials and its allegorical formulas... all of it based on intellect, logic, and all that c*** (not the best) you and the rest of the cynical world, don't want to recognize and admit to.

No, you'd rather argue and insist that everyone let go of their faith and in your mind, stop being ignorant when it truth it is your own arrogance that has blinded you to the facts and realities around both, psychism and mysticism.

I'd recommend two years of seminary so you can get a better understanding on the facts over the assumptions you are embracing.

I thought JackNimble was wondering why sceptics (as in the aggressive, evangelical sort) pursue psychics with such vigour, but 'regular' magicians and people with strong religious beliefs alone.

I don't think he's looking to stir up trouble, more asking (rhetorically) why sceptics pick the targets they do.

Craig's dealt with the magician point. No one really believes magicians do what they say (well, not in the US and UK, unless they have other 'problems'). EDIT: I think it's a bit of a non-argument to compare levitating stage illusionists with mediums, but there's some mileage in querying why it's apparently OK to say that you accomplish a mentalism effect through your expert knowledge of body language and suggestions skills, when you've actually just performed a trick.

There's a grey area with the bizarre magick practitioners, but they are few and far between anyway. I suppose their manner of performance governs the reaction. If they try to convince people that they have real magic powers, demand donations from followers, etc., then they probably fall within the same camp as the psychics. Note that I am putting that argument as I think the hardcore sceptics would see it.

As to why don't the radical atheists badger the Christians, Jews and Muslims? That's obvious - they'd get a kicking. It's easier to push psychics around. That doesn't mean I think all sceptics are cowardly (religion is a bit more than mere superstition in my opinion), or that psychics are all lovely people who wouldn't dream of fleecing people out of thousands of pounds, but sometimes there seems to be an air of hypocrisy and bullying in the sceptics' choice of targets.

I appreciate your responses, one, and all. Also, I apologise if I shouldn't have resurrected this old thread, whether due to forum rules, or the response I seem to have induced from Craig unintentionally. Let me state for the record that no Philosophy/Religion of any type may truly negate (in my view) the personal ethical sense in an individual, no matter what mechanism the internal moral sense may be attributed to ( the "Brain, or Spirt of Phineas Gage?" question, for example--both seek to define the same phenomena, models notwithstanding), though railroad spikes are an exception .

Craig: I don't know how to respond to your diatr--er post, and with the (somewhat late) realization of how old this thread is, I'm surprised at your vehemence, and strange painting of my comments as those of your (apparently) idealogical opposite. A state of disbelief in certain phenomena are not equivalent to various systems defined by logical premises (logic is not equal to agnosticism/atheism/theism ect)...we seem to agree on this. I have no idea what else your talking about..... However I do agree that the blur between feats such as mind reading, and, say turning a stone to metal are gradually dissolving (from my point of view).

Part-timer: You seem to have understood to a great degree what I meant by my post, and I think your point about a false claim that is more "scientific" is not necessarily more "ethical"-- even if it doesn't invoke supernatural justification is at the root of the topic. I must admit as well, a tendency for flower Rhetoric at times, though I try to keep them relevant to the logical structure...and sometimes succeed!

Once upon a time, as I'm sure most of us know, sleight of hand was considered to be a supernatural skill bestowed by the gods, a magic amulet ect and not a normal skill. As Part-Timer pointed out, this view is rarely accepted in this modern age. But this is, as he said himself a grey area, to control flame is more phenomenal than noumenal, this is the distinction I am bringing up. One small point we usually miss is that certain physical manifestations are considered religous/cultural norms; I myself was a student of the martial arts and saw/did various ( non fraudulent) feats that would leave the average person beliving me on par with an "Immortal". How about a charm, or fetish that would grant the wearer the ability to gain an ace per most hands that are dealt? Most of us could give a reasonable demo of such Not all claims of magic objects strike us as the same as buying the Brooklyn Bridge or are limited to organized religion. Some would say that those who hold such views are beyond help, but being a human, I realise that this is founded on denial of the scientifically (and experientally, a man having untreated 2x4's broken upon him-- repeatedly, with barely any noticable ill effect!) known nature of humans-- this is why I mention rabbit's feet/bibles/amulets ect, as objects which are said to grant supernatural ability-- these are know examples from history, and not an attempt to single out a grouping of belivers in specific. Perhaps I've made an error in posting on this topic...at any rate I ( hopefully ) await your responses.

No worries about bringing old threads back to life Jack, in fact it's a great way of seeing how the passage of time has, or hasn't changed attitudes and feelings - and it saves the Mods having to post links to previous threads! You will notice that some members have very strong views and it's really a case of seeing their previous posts to get the flavour of how things work. Honestly held views are always welcome even if they seem to be stronger than may have been expected.

Jack, call me simple minded (many do)... but I simply have difficulty understanding where you are coming from, given the style of your writing... something about it confuses me and having been set-up by one or two word-gymnasts here and in other UK forums when it comes to word plays, I still try to go with what I think I'm reading (which is the typical magic-buff rhetoric) and respond in kind.

I'll admit that I sometimes have difficulty deciphering things some of you from that side of the pond post and the style of your writing. Your original post was rather confounding for me when it comes to making sense out of it... maybe if it were composed on a more simple "elementary" level vs. an attempt of what seems to be saying "I'm smarter than you, silly mortal"... perhaps that would have allowed me to better understand where you were actually wanting to come from in your post.

Yes... even today there are parts of the world in which slight-of-hand remains part of religious tradition and viewed as "sacred" and genuine (even when the public knows better). The UTNE Reader had a fantastic article on this very thing some years back.

Today, instead of a charm or talisman the Medical Professionals prescribe placebos or the local cleric gifts someone a Rosary or Saint's medal... the modern-day parallel to the same (as WERE retirement accounts, High Interest Savings Programs, etc. But they aren't quite as magickle now that the light has shown upon them). Every society and era has it's magickle fixes, an amazing amount of which are validated and proclaimed as "legit"... at least for that moment in time by the greatest minds in their day; 100 years ago Phrenology was the cutting edge when it came to "Scientific" analysis of would be executive hires in a large company or political office... today, it is seen as one of the biggest jokes that ever was. Same can be said about dowsing, body morph analysis and a sundry of other examples INCLUDING the most recent trend of NLP which many "legit" researchers classify as pure clap-trap... kind of like some of the less clad theories of mentalism, it is nothing more than an amalgamation of already known and existing techniques and theories.

The magic of our ancestors has in fact become the science of our present; same thing just different wordage as well as a greater sense of perspective/understanding that allows us to remove the boogiemen from those limited yesteryear points of view. Nonetheless, it remains the same and as I stated, students of the deeper levels of esoteric initiation then as well as now, will tell you quite directly that there is no conflict between what the cynics of society want to insist upon and what the mystics actually practice.... other than how that information is conveyed and too, how it is viewed at a "higher" more "humanist" level; what many would call "Spirituality".

If I'm understanding you correctly re: rabbit's feet and lucky charms... well, I've yet to meet a human being who didn't have some kind of lucky shirt, tie or coin as well as a ritual they go through almost verbatim on a daily basis and/or as they prepare to do a show.. it is Human Nature, no matter how skeptical one might be when it comes to such ditties... we all do it... just try shaving your own face by starting out in contrast to how you normally would do such and see how confusing and "less satisfying" it seems... even changing between when you shave vs. showering and brushing your teeth... it throws us off when we break with our habit... the ritual we've created, and on the subconscious level, leads us to trip over our feet for the rest of the day... ultimately blaming that change in how things are done, for the negative (or positive) results we experienced as the result of said changes.

As I posted elsewhere this past week, I have deliberately presented bits as real for the sake of the placebo effect and how it would affect the witnesses be it scaring them straight (getting them off of drugs and out of a dangerous cult situation) or helping them overcome their cultural-based fears that were being manipulated by a genuine charlatan (seems there are a group of hustlers in the psychic world who prey on the Hispanic and Native American communities due to their ingrained superstitions and more dramatic sense of religious connection/fanaticism. This is exploited by these charlatans for two reasons; the first being that these people are an easy mark due to a lack of general education;, and too, most tend to be illegally in the U.S. and thus, won't go to the authorities to report said usury... they are the perfect mark!

My personal credentials within the New Age/Pagan communities lend to me a validity that allows me to help these victims out of "dangerous" situations without insulting their beliefs or intellect. This is an approach that most cynics loathe and yet, it has been the common path of the mentalists working in the "real world" (within their community market and not shooting for the commercial "Show Biz" route) for generations.

Needless to say I and those like me (which are far more common than some would like to believe... I'm just noisier than most) are detested and the focus of attack by the typical cynic who, in most instances, is incapable of working at such a "genuine" level -- show biz works great for them in that they can write it all off and assume little to no sense of responsibility. Yet, they fail to pay attention as to how they hurt this craft by holding to this fairly recent mode of looking at things. More so, they are loosing out on some of the more amazing gems in life that happen as you use your knowledge and skills as a tool that helps and heals vs. antics of personal masturbatory demonstrations on stage.

No, there's nothing wrong with stage work... I've done a lot of it over the years. But it's just one small part of what Mentalism (specifically) is all about. I also believe, based on both my own experiences and what I hear from my peers, that focusing exclusively on the more commercial aspects of show biz as a mentalist and to some level, the magician, is unrealistic given the extreme levels of limited market size and the plethora of individuals trying to jump in on the same ride. Too, few are willing to invest the time and sacrifice the "things" such a world demands. Which is why the more rural "Old School" element ends up the more optimum course of travel and yet, the least spoken of in today's cynical culture.

Anywho... that's it for now

Mandrake: Thank you for the response, it's comforting to know that my natural sense of decorum was correct.

Craig: On the condition that you realize that I'm being quite satirical...I'll call you "simple-minded". That was a good-natured joke . In truth, I am appreciative of you ability to answer in a rational and coherent manner when I'm not viewed as your diametric opposite. Once again, I do apologise for my rhetorical leaning in responses...and actual speech. I concede that this may actually be to make me feel smarter, or that it may be a conditioned reaction to my enviroment during development. We actually agree more than we disagree, whether you realize it, Craig, or not. Simply put, I do indeed belive in things others would find incredulous, but, my validations for accepting the phenomena are at least quasi-scientific in nature( see Sentic Forms, cross-ref Classical Theories of Music). This statement is not a challenge, but purely ( possibly misplaced ) curiosity: What would you Read from my posts thus far?

At any rate, my interest in this post was due to my tenuous movements toward mentalist effects, mostly successful so far, but, I wanted a cross-section from more developed mentalists in explaining of the mechanism of feats. A non-sensical answer in legerdemain ( "the Coin is Magic!!") should theoretically allow me to say something equally non-sensical in response to completing a mentalist affect, though I've yet to try this...I am currently acting if my "capabilities" are not particularly special, and furthermore, may be flukes. Both of these options seem displeasing to me, one in an ethical sense, one in an aesthetic. Also, I feel that the legerdemain effects should approach this line between belief and disbelief-- though that would merely give me the same problem I am facing with mentalism.

Still trying to decipher you myriad of words (pant, pant, pant)

The key to effective Mentalism is COMMUNICATION e.g. you must learn to speak the language of the people you will be reaching out to rather than talking about their heads... I've survived Gurdjieff's books and I'm still having trouble wading through your posts.

This is inclusive of creating a strong psychological investment from the participants -- belief in what you present based on the sense of viability and validity you, as the performer, create. If your claims are plausible based on the skill/talent/"power" (I hate using the P world in that it's a myth) then this belief will come about naturally and thus, the simplest of phenomena can and typically will result in a positive audience response of wonder, excitement and in some instances fear (one of my favorites).

In the Seance setting I would typically seek to create wonder but it must fit my traditional claims as a "Psychic", which happens to be INTUITION; a simple and very natural matter of ability that most people can relate to to some degree. This makes it viable as well as "accessible"... something most of the other "psychic skills" or even pseudo-psychological sciences (like NLP) can't boast... it's not something common place in the life of the typical human being in the way that Intuition is and can be proved as such... in a matter of speaking

Bob Cassidy as well as Paul Brook both address this kind of thing; cohesion of the tale and the character and how the combination creates the kind of enchantments we have sought to develop and yes, when we do them right, we probably could cultivate a potent religious following in relatively short time... I'll direct you to John Riggs and his myriad of manuscripts with his handbook on Messiah Making being a bit more than what the typical magic buff would want to toy with.

We live in an era in which the "tricks" we learn with linguistics, psychological commons, etc. are part of the daily grind within clerical practice, the sales and marketing world, et al. Techniques set outside the "entertainment" medium for the soul purpose of exploiting and manipulating the consumer so in such demonstrations it becomes quite apparent that we are playing with some potentially dangerous fire and not just a conglomeration of "tricks"

Jack Nimble: you may find some nice traction from reading Lamont and Wiseman's book on magic theory, which has a useful framework to look at the different feats that we acheive. The framework then allows you think about how you might present the achievements of a mentalist in a way that makes sense to your own persona. It is important to have a back story that makes sense to you and with which you fell comfortable. I do not think this process will happen quickly. Rather, exploarations through repeat performances and more study of particular effects, scripts, and routining will yield some paths for you to follow.

Frankly, I'm glad to hear that others have considered this phenomena in terms of personal application, and not merely in the abstract. I have been given much to think about, and peruse-- hopefully I shall be able to fit the suggested resources into my ( currently) mutating schedule. I also must say that this dialogue has given me much better results than simply asking a few laymen how they think I've been able to do various feats...I've no doubt that anyone here Wouldn't be surprised at some of the strange answers that are replied from spectators (not a single one correct, though I fear to try the same tactic in getting advice upon pure sleight of hand ). Being discreet, ( asking friends, individually ) I've found that a lot of people would prefer mind reading than beliving that I took advantage of common flukes of human perception/thinking as an explaination. Playing with fire indeed, upon consideration either role, believer or believed is a dismal proposition at best, fraught with danger. Naturally, dealing with such concerns in an internalized manner will take much time-- thankfully, my journey's distance may well have been lessened by the advice of you good gentlemen-- I'd no relevant ( that I viewed as such) resources before... Now I belive my chances may be better. My thanks, for allowing me to draw upon your experiences, and advice-- may we all be the better for things such as this. Oh yes, and for letting me waylay this thread as well