talkmagic.co.uk

Craig Browning wrote:Let's see... I look at the list of names who endorse the book and I look at the list of names allied with either the JRF or CSICops... WOW! They read like a Who's Who of the business in over 95% of the cases.

You said *everybody* listed on this page, I see you've now revised that to 95% - you're now heading in the right direction.
http://www.ianrowland.com/ItemsToBuy/Co ... ments.html

There are loads and loads of people on that page that have *nothing* to do with the JRF and CSICops. Hence your statement that *everybody* is a known 'skeptic' is false and misleading.

Craig Browning wrote:Then you better let all those magic dealers on and off line that have it listed know that they don't carry it... do you need a list?

Yes, please post some verifiable links to online retailers that stock Ian's book.

I'm rather disappointed to see that the two very diplomatic posts before the one above have been completely ignored. The point being made was to slacken off with the arguments and disagreements as the tone of the thread has descended to a worryingly personal level. Can we please now take a breather on this one? There are pros and cons on both sides of the discussion but continued quoting and contradicting isn’t getting us anywhere useful.

Amen to that! (as an athiest, skeptic, scientist, child of the enlightenment, and close-up magician....).

Craig's book is on my list for next month. Can't wait to read both!

What happened to my review!?!

Its turning into a bloodbath!

Fristly, I apologise to everyone for my part in this to and fro thing. For some reason there are certain people (sadly, all of them Brits) that feel they must nit-pick and devalue anything I say or try to bring out using normal language instead of lawyer defined specifics. As I've pointed out elsewhere, I only encounter these confrontations in two (used to be only one, but since you share members, it's no surprise) UK based forums... and, in a joking manner, one U.S. forum in which a guy from the UK loves to give me little jabs in gest.

I don't know if this is a cultural thing or if it's intentionally something certain types of people are doing for the sake of hurting both, me and my reputation. Maybe they just want to play some kind of cruel game of wits... regardless, I hate it and again, I apologise for my part in defending what I've stated and how that was misquoted and wrongly referenced.

What can I say, I'm a hot blooded Irishman

I still don't know what to do

I agree with taneous. Ian's book is excellent, but he doesn't explain how to go about doing a reading. You could maybe thrash something out from all the different techniques he explains, but it doesn't qualify as telling you how to do a reading, in my book.

Imagine a DIY book that tells you in great detail about tools. It also explains about drilling and sawing, joints and fastenings, brackets and rawlplugs.

Does that, of itself, tell you how to go about putting up some shelves?

Craig has more than once said that Ian's book is good in many respects, but has a bad attitude towards readers. I can see that and I am no great supporter of psychics. If someone wants a tarot reading, it really is no skin off my nose. Ian's book reads more like someone debunking readings than teaching how they should be done. It's still a great resource, in my opinion.

Part-Timer wrote:I agree with taneous. Ian's book is excellent, but he doesn't explain how to go about doing a reading. You could maybe thrash something out from all the different techniques he explains, but it doesn't qualify as telling you how to do a reading, in my book.

Imagine a DIY book that tells you in great detail about tools. It also explains about drilling and sawing, joints and fastenings, brackets and rawlplugs.

Does that, of itself, tell you how to go about putting up some shelves?

Craig has more than once said that Ian's book is good in many respects, but has a bad attitude towards readers. I can see that and I am no great supporter of psychics. If someone wants a tarot reading, it really is no skin off my nose. Ian's book reads more like someone debunking readings than teaching how they should be done. It's still a great resource, in my opinion.

AMEN!

I want to be loved and respected here... but
Nein, buy the book ppl buy all the books, dvd's pamphlets etc you can get!
Mr Browning I would love to chat but... be cool man
you have raised so many serious points. respect.
ps if your into this field eat all you can and one day you'll be you.
love and peace.

ppl should know how to do a reading anyway. no book is a bible.
well 'cept the bible i guess. haha

Actually - I've even got a copy of cold facts in my guestroom - under the old gideons bible and royal road to card magic

Don't mean to belabour(sp?) the point - but the quote I promised is on page 11 (in the 3rd edition) under the 3rd point of "Three things this book is not about". I was going to type it out but I don't want to start a whole debate on copyright

PartTimer - good illustration. You hit the nail on the head (excuse the pun).

Craig - you're a good man (Irish blood and all). I think the people here who appreciate what you have to say far outweighs those who don't.

Craig Browning wrote: For some reason there are certain people (sadly, all of them Brits) that feel they must nit-pick and devalue anything I say or try to bring out using normal language instead of lawyer defined specifics.

Craig if you're refering to me (which I assume you must be) then I reject the notion that I was nitpicking AND/OR devaluing what you say. I'm not questioning your expertise in this area but you did post two statements that were wrong and misleading. Anybody trying to make a decision about buying Ian's book would be mislead by those statements.

You stated as fact that Ian's book was available everywhere, implying Ian's overall motive is to create as much $$$ and exposure on the subject as possible.

Not true, Ian's book is only available from one website, just like yours.

You also said that *everyone* that endorses Ian's book is a skeptic and member of JREF CSIops and are only making those endorsements because they all skeptics RATHER than endorsing the actual content.

Again this is just not true and devalues the content of the book.

Somebody reading your false statements could form an incorrect opinion about the content of Ian's book. One of the great things about Magic forums such as TM is that people can make informed purchasing decisions, making sure they buy the best product for their needs. False information from those with vested interests in competing products does not support that aim.

I have no personal issue with you Craig and you should not interpret it as that, but what I've posted are the facts of the situation - which have been lost sight of in this discussion.

Just a clarification point:

I am halfway through Ian's book. I find it informative, funny, and a good guide to understanding various strategies for cold reading (a bit like Tradecraft from www.trickshop.com), but it does not give a full method for doing a cold reading. Craig's assessment is therefore correct.

As I can gather from the web write up of Craig's book and his comments on this thread, his book (which is a PDF download only) does offer a varity of methods for sitting down and doing a cold reading.

What I want to know is if Craig wants recognition from JREF et al or does he not want such recognition? His book is pitched at mentalists who want the best method for conducting cold readings.

I am keen to get the book and compare it to Ian's book, but I am curious what exactly the dispute his been about.

Craig, I think DrTodd has raised an interesting point. I know you're not the biggest fan of them, but imagine what fun it would be to get the likes of Randi or Rowland to endorse your book! Personally, I think that would be quite a coup!

DrTodd - I don't think it has anything to do with Craig wanting recognition. The initial posts were about Full Facts not being the best book to start with. Full Facts of Cold Reading wasn't written to teach cold reading - it was written to expose psychics supposedly using the method.

Since this is the review section - let me add my own review.

"This book is not about the methods used by magicians, mindreaders and the rest of my kind who practise dark, deceptive arts purely for entertainmant purposes" (pg 11)

"This book is about deception used outside the spere of entertainment..." (pg 12)

The first chapter is titled "Welcome to the Psychic Circus", followed with "The Greatest Scam in History?".

He then goes on to explain,how (in his opinion) psychics use the method of cold reading to fool people into believing they have special powers, complete with a chapter on how you can protect yourself from being fooled by a psychic (entitled Blocking techniques - no it doesn't include wearing special amulets, or any skill in martial arts etc.)

The book is very comprehensive and details a lot more than just the Forer effect - like many other books on the subject seem to do. It also contains a helpful chapter on using cold reading in sales etc. A friend of mine has taken this a step further and does a 'cold reading' on wine - which has got him into a number of exclusive wine tasting clubs, despite knowing not too much about wine..

I personally enjoyed the book and Ian has a great sense of humour - but it did leave me with the idea that all psychics are frauds and for a while I thought I knew it all and could explain away all psychic phenomenon. This has fortunately changed..
Ian Rowland knows a whole lot about Cod Reading, but his definition of 'psychic' is rather limited. While he does admit that in the beginning of the book - I found I quickly forgot the definition. Is that intentional? Hmm - one would need to be a mindreader to know that..

So - if you're curious and want to get the book - get it. If you really want to learn how to do a reading - then this book probably isn't for you. Rather wait for the list of books that Craig (who does this for a living) has offered to post.

Lets put this thing to rest now shall we..