talkmagic.co.uk

personally i think it willbe a case of ''removing'' the cardyourself, then i dunno.. putting it back in for the spectotake out again

i just know that you dont end clean and have to clean up yourself, which is fine.. but im thinkin along the lines of stigmata.. the preview never showed the trick.. why? i thinks Wayne is holding a vital piece back..

Also.. its a ellusionist member saying clean upis 2 secs? We allknowhow biased or 'edited' statements from there can be??

Why is there always a catch...

There's a very interesting commentary on the release of this trick by Richard Morrell at http://www.magician.org.uk/?blogid=1&archive=2006-10-31

I tend to agree with him.

Well, the effect sounded fantastic, until I actually saw the method.

Yes—the method is clever, and done correctly, very convincing.

But there's a couple of MAJOR flaws in this which leave me personally quite cold.

The 'cleanup' as such does in fact leave the bag and card examinable (to an extent*) and therefore yes, if you 'swiftly move on' to removing the card, then nothing is suspected.

The actual illusion itself is quite convincing (although in the explanation, WH actually states he 'did the reveal in front of a mirror over and over, and you will too'... this wasn't true for me, seeing him do it once was proof enough that it worked!

The 3 stages to the effect run well: Selection and signing of a card and losing in the deck, the 'Hocus Pocus' where the magic happens, and the appearance and removal of the card in polybag.

Just a shame, however, that this isn't more hands-on for the speccy, as you'd be led to think.

I wish I'd have listened to Public Enemy:

Don't. Da, Don't. Don't believe da hype. (Yeah, y'all)

do you own this effect Seige? I'd love to read a full review of the tutorial. Waynes handling for sinful was so smooth, i wonder what he suggests for pulling the card 'out' of the bag.

although i dont own the dvd/download, i cant be blamed for instantly understanding the method and having a little play around with the handling. I've found that there are a number of ways to achieve the final clean-up, some of which look very convincing, when ocompanied with the line " check that is your signature" - It knocked my girlfriend for 6 anyway.

so i reckon dispite the dissapointment of no actual magic pentration taking place, the effect remains a good one.

Now i can't wait to see what KAOS by Daniel Garcia looks like , the 'surgical card thru window' effect which was advertised in Genii last month. i hope it is good enough that we dont have another did it/ didn't it really go through debate.

Ellusionist are still punks for not showing the whole trick in the preview though, it is just FALSE ADVERTISING. Their excuse on their forums (submitted by Waaayne himself) was that showing the clean up would tip the method.......ok....errrr...make the trick better then???

i wont be performing Indecent, as i dont feel i have the right to without buying it. I could have been tempted if they had just shown the full routine, and the end was as deceptive as the beggining, unfortunatly without a full preview i just dont trust em!

has anyone out there bought it yet?

Yes, i was interested enough to buy it as i feel that each dvd i buy is carefully selected so that i can analyse it to make it better and........ ok, i just liked the effect and bought it! If i can make it better, as in, let the speccy take the card out, then so be it!

Review coming soon!

Atomo wrote:
i wont be performing Indecent, as i dont feel i have the right to without buying it. I

Well, i disagree with that. If you understood how it is done, well, tough; it means that the trick is not all that ground breaking; if you understand it how it is done by watching the demo, for me, it is not a good trick; if I can understand what's going on, audience might too.
I am aware that as a magician we can spot straight away a DL, but a DL is not so foreign to audiences... Some people can work out a trick without actually SEEING the method being exposed; however well you performed the trick... It is then an audience management thing.

But if you understand how the method works, then well, use it; it might still be different from the actual routine...
And again, why do they bother selling it if they know most magicians will understand it without buying it???

Jerome the French wrote

If you understood how it is done, well, tough

I'm not so sure about this. I'm 2 years into magic as a serious hobby and gradually getting into performing parties / weddings and so on. I've tried to develop a good moral ethical approach to my magic, and I struggle with feeling 100% in performing a routine that I haven't purchased and given my support to the creator for. I've sussed many routines, but I don't feel that gives me the right to perform them.


On another note, I'm going to search through my MagicSeen issues when I get home as I'm sure a "Card to A4 plastic wallet" was broken down in a recent issue. Did I dream this up, or was it it Genii or a book I've bought? I can't remeber where it was from - but I do remember reading about it and the exaxt method of cleaning up!!

The Last Deck on the Left wrote: I've tried to develop a good moral ethical approach to my magic, and I struggle with feeling 100% in performing a routine that I haven't purchased and given my support to the creator for. I've sussed many routines, but I don't feel that gives me the right to perform them.

I can understand, this is a personal thing I guess.
It's like music, loads of people copy CDs, and download music; The artist doesn't get anything for that...
Although do they suffer from it?
You will still go to their concerts, and potentially buy their newer albums if you become a fan...
For me, if I can figure out how it's done, I won't feel guilty in using it without buying it. Although, if i really like the magician, I would definitely go to their lecture.

JUST because you have worked out how something is done it does NOT give you the right to perform it without paying the creator.

Think about it like this: would you be perfroming the effect, as you saw it done, had this person not released the effect? Chances are you wouldn't - you owe it to the creator for giving you this effect.

Imagine if X released Y, which is the most incredible and astonishing effect anyone has ever seen. It's workings, however, are very basic - it is how he has put them together that produces such a brilliant piece of magic. Even though you may be able to work it out from a demo video you OWE it to the creator to give them what they deserve.

Things like structure, timing, management, nuances - all of these you are also getting for nothing just because you've worked out the method, something which the creator has (hopefully) spent many hours and months working on and honing.

Saying that you have every right to perform an effect because you worked it out yourself is no justification for THEFT.

You will still go to their concerts, and potentially buy their newer albums if you become a fan...
For me, if I can figure out how it's done, I won't feel guilty in using it without buying it. Although, if i really like the magician, I would definitely go to their lecture.

You cannot use that as a valid argument either. Magicians and mentalists do NOT see a big return from their lectures, and are few and far between.

Cardza wrote:JUST because you have worked out how something is done it does NOT give you the right to perform it without paying the creator.

Think about it like this: would you be perfroming the effect, as you saw it done, had this person not released the effect? Chances are you wouldn't - you owe it to the creator for giving you this effect.

Imagine if X released Y, which is the most incredible and astonishing effect anyone has ever seen. It's workings, however, are very basic - it is how he has put them together that produces such a brilliant piece of magic. Even though you may be able to work it out from a demo video you OWE it to the creator to give them what they deserve.

Things like structure, timing, management, nuances - all of these you are also getting for nothing just because you've worked out the method, something which the creator has (hopefully) spent many hours and months working on and honing.

Saying that you have every right to perform an effect because you worked it out yourself is a pathetic justification of THEFT.

You will still go to their concerts, and potentially buy their newer albums if you become a fan...
For me, if I can figure out how it's done, I won't feel guilty in using it without buying it. Although, if i really like the magician, I would definitely go to their lecture.

You cannot use that as a valid argument either. Magicians and mentalists do NOT see a big return from their lectures, and are few and far between.

Everyone's entitled to his opinions.
I respect the work of magicians, but I don't see why I should pay for something I work out.
That said, it's not because I work out how an effect is done that I will use it.
I am very selective to the material I perform; also, the demo videos that are released are more than often for a single (mostly) trick / gimmick. I do not use these in my routines, as I am performing impromptu / minimum setup tricks (can't be arsed carrying too much stuff, and don't like to setup stuff); so what I support doesn't really apply to me. I mainly invest in books / DVDs, with several tricks on it.

Therefore, I am not a thief.

But, I still feel that I i work out something, I dunno why I should pay... For me, if I can work it out (to certain limits of course), it is not a trick I want to perform.

For example,. loads of people figured out how the Houchin's coin in soda can was performed... I knew it involved handling, but had no idea what the working's were... SO I got the video...

Anyway, I am a working semi-pro, and to be honest, you can make money in magic. ANd I do not believe that selling stuff is the way to make money. Videos can be copied / downloaded easily, and piracy has always existed...
People have dealt with it and survived it so far, so...

I just feel that if you don't want your stuff performed by people who worked out your trick, then release quality stuff not poop effect involving DL and twirl moves (aimed at Sankey)... I kinda lost my respect for these magicians that were respectable and are great performers, but who are polluting the market with cheap magic. Sankey's trouble with retailers lately show that his drive is no more magic but $$$.

That said I don't wanna argue here, i love this forum, and don't wanna make enemies. that was my opinions, and mine only.

Jerome the French wrote:That said I don't wanna argue here, i love this forum, and don't wanna make enemies. that was my opinions, and mine only.

That's fair enough and neither do I, but this is something I tend to get quite worked up about. I know a few creators and the problems they have had with piracy and, to a lesser extent, things like this.

Just wanted to comment on a few points:

That said, it's not because I work out how an effect is done that I will use it.

Fine by me. It's when you start publicly performing something without paying for it I have an issue with.

Therefore, I am not a thief.

If you take something without paying for it, you are a thief

But, I still feel that I i work out something, I dunno why I should pay... For me, if I can work it out (to certain limits of course), it is not a trick I want to perform.

There's a whole other debate in there, and your comments tie in here with what I just said above - it depends on where your ethics lie. I am very pro-creator, I like to support them.

Anyway, I am a working semi-pro, and to be honest, you can make money in magic. ANd I do not believe that selling stuff is the way to make money. Videos can be copied / downloaded easily, and piracy has always existed...
People have dealt with it and survived it so far, so...

That does not justify the act of theft itself though .

I just feel that if you don't want your stuff performed by people who worked out your trick, then release quality stuff not poop effect involving DL and twirl moves...

Just because it is simple in methodology it doesn't make it a poor effect. But I understand what you mean here.

Back on topic - I myself am not sure this effect warrants a whole DVD, priced as it is, on it. I do not think that it would take that long to explain and would have been better suited as part of a larger work IMO.

That said, Ellusionist sure do know how to put together a good promo video. One viewing and I found myself wanting to buy a copy!

Cardza wrote:That's fair enough and neither do I, but this is something I tend to get quite worked up about. I know a few creators and the problems they have had with piracy and, to a lesser extent, things like this.

You should always back up things you believe in, and I appreciate this debate, although I think we won't find neutral ground on that one...

That said, it's not because I work out how an effect is done that I will use it.
Fine by me. It's when you start publicly performing something without paying for it I have an issue with.

I have done that in the past, sorry...

If you take something without paying for it, you are a thief

fair enough...

There's a whole other debate in there, and your comments tie in here with what I just said above - it depends on where your ethics lie. I am very pro-creator, I like to support them.

I am not anti creator at all, I do purchase magic. Last week I bought a super sharpie and a DVD from Oz Pearlman.

People have dealt with it (piracy) and survived it so far, so...

That does not justify the act of theft itself though .

No it doesn't but that's something they must live with...

Just because it is simple in methodology it doesn't make it a poor effect. But I understand what you mean here.

I agree here. Simple methodology if almost as powerfull as a sleighty / hard way to do things, and at the end of the day it is what the spectator sees that matters, not what he doesn't see...
Also, I didn't use the word "poor", but "poop" as c*** (not the best). But there is censorship around here, I can't swear...
Yeah, I used to like Jay Sankey until I actually met him; I will see him again in Blackpool this year, and see if he had a bad year last time I saw him.
I find him extremely funny, but in person, rather cold and self centered.
I am also very disappointed in the magic he produced in the last few years. just DVDs on card magic with the same moves all along. He's been releasing 37 DVDs of the same trick and different presentations.
Just the very last couple of effects he released were interesting again.
that said, some of his DVDs are pure genius (revolutionary coin magic is a fab one). I just feel he's been resting on his laurels lately...

Back on topic - I myself am not sure this effect warrants a whole DVD, priced as it is, on it. I do not think that it would take that long to explain and would have been better suited as part of a larger work IMO.

That said, Ellusionist sure do know how to put together a good promo video. One viewing and I found myself wanting to buy a copy!

Yeah, I think the same, I don't feel this effect is all that anyway. I would love to see a Wayne Houchin DVD with several of his effects gathered together. I like his style, and find his ideas interesting; but this effect on its own is not worth it I feel. You can find stronger effects with a "cleaner" way out etc etc.

A quick word to the wise Jerome, you've probably noticed that the whole piracy issue has been discussed to death here and despite your well argued standpoint you're probably not going to get very far with it on this forum.

For the record I have leanings towards both sides of the argument, but the best analogy I've come up with is that it doesn't matter how simple or obvious something is to work out to you at the end of the day you didn't come up with it yourself so avoid using it without credit (generally expressed by handing over cash). For example the music of the Beatles is generally pretty simple,just a few basic chords and some warbling about how much you love someone, anyone listening who knows a bit about music could well think 'I could have done that' but they didn't, and that's the point.

bronz wrote:A quick word to the wise Jerome, you've probably noticed that the whole piracy issue has been discussed to death here and despite your well argued standpoint you're probably not going to get very far with it on this forum.

For the record I have leanings towards both sides of the argument, but the best analogy I've come up with is that it doesn't matter how simple or obvious something is to work out to you at the end of the day you didn't come up with it yourself so avoid using it without credit (generally expressed by handing over cash). For example the music of the Beatles is generally pretty simple,just a few basic chords and some warbling about how much you love someone, anyone listening who knows a bit about music could well think 'I could have done that' but they didn't, and that's the point.

That is fair enough.
I will stop the debate here, then. Again, it is down to the individual. I understand what Cardza says, and respect it.