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When you're in a hole, stop digging. Here's why...

monker59 wrote:Magicians of the forum, I would like to explain my reasoning for looking for trick explainations on YouTube. First, these tricks are done by hobbyists, not career magicians. Second, if you release a video on YouTube which reveals any kind of secret, it is not the person who looks at it who is morally wrong, but the releaser of the video. Third, the tricks that are revealed on YouTube have so far only been card tricks and simple sleight of hand, there is no product that is being exploited (except maybe playing cards and quarters). Finally, YouTube was created to share information freely on the web. If a person freely releases a video revealing the work behind a trick, they have shown that they do not care if people know this secret. I believe that no blame should fall on me because I watch what is freely released onto the Internet. If you do not like someone who releases trick secrets, perhaps you should contact the makers of such videos and tell them that you think this is wrong. I will not have my character called into question on such unfounded accusations.

Your attitude to magical secrets stinks. Trying to justify it simply fans the stench in the faces of the inventors whose magic, because you can't afford it, you think you have a right to simply take. Let's face it, you wouldn't pay the people who post these videos for free, would you.

to boil it down to the simplest notion...

have respect for magic...do not sully it or demean it by watching sh*t that's often laid on YouPube...its better to go without than to settle for rubbish...

respect means not giving in to the cheap n easy way out, respect means everything in magic...give your own work repect, give others work the same respect too...

if you've been into magic for 5 years or however long, you should know you dont ask or seek out reveals...you buy the things, or come up with your own methods using creativity and thought...

simple...

I have the utmost respect for magic and other magicians. I just feel that there should be bigger lines of communication between those in the magic community (of course, sharing a trick secret with the common layman is just sinful). If you've got a cool effect, don't keep it to yourself and sell it at exorbitant prices, share it with fellow magicians. Share it with them on sites like this! However, I do believe some tricks do have a right to be marketed to the public and other magicians, but those are the tricks that have been worked on for years, being perfected, every aspect of the trick honed and gradually polished. The tricks I have learned from YouTube are basically simple tricks that have great responses from the spectators. I would also like to add that I, myself, make no money off of performing tricks. I don't steal another magician's secret and then pass it off as my own. I am just a sixteen year old kid who learns tricks, thinks up some on his own, and performs them for friends, family, and for the occaisional charity work I do at Mass General Hospital. I just want to expand my knowledge of magic within my limitations.

Also, I wanted to add one thing. If you go on YouTube and type in "David Zanthor" in google, you will get a bunch of videos from this PROFESSIONAL magician where he reveals some trick secrets on another video site.

Oh God. Zanthor's back. He must be very pleased with you!

monker59 wrote:If you've got a cool effect, don't keep it to yourself and sell it at exorbitant prices, share it with fellow magicians.

Okay, you go first. Post your coolest effect that's entirely your own blood, sweat and toil, and I'm sure we'll all take it for free and use it and claim it as our own, just as you've been doing.

I mean to say, why on Earth would anyone want to give away what you refer to as merely "cool" effects to strangers for nothing when they're so incredibly difficult to come up with and perfect?

You're a one-way street.

here goes you tube starting another bloody argument on here.

I don't think we should completely slam the guy for watching you tube videos, i think it's really good to see performances. The fact is this stuff goes on, plus i think the selling of knowledge and tricks to other magicians may be helped out by the exposure on you tube.

I have bought some absolute spiff when i was starting out and that's because to a lot of these people who retail (penguin magic anyone!!) these things are taking people for a ride, $15 to learn the bill switch, with a slight tweak is just not good enough! there is way too much of this that goes on and people genuinely wanting to learn are getting fleeced left right and centre. You might argue that you should buy to find out, but if i had to buy every trick i have learned from friends and other magicians i would be bankrupt by now!!
My ethos is like a lot of peoples.... in another example, when it comes to downloading music, i download the album for free, then if i like it i go out and buy it because i believe the artist deserves it, why should you have to pay for something when you don't know what it is! I do the same with the tricks, but because me and my friends have a good knowledge of magic we can usually watch someone perform a trick and see the method - at which point we say "trying to fleece people again i see!" OR "well i can see how it was done and it was class, i'll buy it"

The ring on shoelace is the perfect example, my friend bought it, so then obviously i knew the method, however, i still asked richard sanders to demo it for me, it was class so i decided to buy it - also the tuition from the creators is usually worth more than the method itself in my eyes , as the old saying goes , a good trick performed badly isn't as good as a simple trick performed brilliantly.

I'm not arguing that it is right for tutorials to be on youtube, far from it, i just think it may be a positive thing in the long run. For 99.9% of people if a trick is good and they want it they will buy it whether or not there is a tutorial on youtube. So over time it will filter out a lot of the c*** (not the best) that people try and pass of as their own creations to make a quick buck from, and the truly good creations will continue to prosper.

Youtube is here to stay and if it is not youtube it will be another website, the entertainment of magic will have to adapt to deal with the internet as every other form of entertainment has had to do, its as simple as that.

and as for criticising someone's mentality for watching these tutorials, give the lad a break he is trying to expand his magic knowledge on a limited budget and he is watching free videos to do this. To ask someone to curb their passion and ambition because they can't afford it when there are free options out there seems ludicrous!

get over it!

PLUS i'd like to know whether these tutorials actually affect the income of the magicians selling their stuff - i asked gregory wilson this exact question as i did my dissertation on something about internet piracy..."not one bit" was his reply!

So on two counts, 1. the exposure isn't a problem as i still get great reactions for tricks that have countless exposures on youtube, and 2. from the evidence i have, which is probably more than most on here, it is not affecting the creators financially.

on the plus side it is opening the world of magic to those who previously couldn't afford it and the when these people get into it, undoubtedly they will BUY BUY BUY as well. -

HAVE THAT!!

Tomo wrote:Okay, you go first. Post your coolest effect that's entirely your own blood, sweat and toil, and I'm sure we'll all take it for free and use it and claim it as our own, just as you've been doing.

Once I get access to restricted areas, I plan to release some of the tricks I've been creating. I dont' care if other magicians use it. However, I don't claim I made up the tricks that I learned on YouTube, far from it and I don't expect anyone else to claim a trick that they did not make up on their own.

P.S. Thank you, king_of_keighly, it's nice to have someone who understands how hard it is to acquire new tricks.

monker59 wrote:it's nice to have someone who understands how hard it is to acquire new tricks.

After about a year on this forum, I have seen the light. Acquiring new tricks cost under $20 in the form of Royal Road to Card Magic and Complete Course in Magic.

You will FREAK OUT at the amount of material you will have for such an insanely ridiculous low price. After having picked up these 2 books (along with Bobo's modern coin magic) I can honestly say to have NO PITY for those who claim they don't have enough money to buy this and that. If you can afford it, then go out and purchase the latest one-trick wonder DVD (some of which are in fact quite impressive and well-done). But if you can't afford it, it's not your God-given right to be able to view these things. As soon as you wrap your head around the fact that, for the most part, magic is timeless - and that the effects described in a book written in 1952 still apply and are used today in the vast majority of these DVD's and downloads, you will be a happier and more knowledgeable magician.

...and in truth, I was getting sick of sitting at my computer everytime I wanted to learn magic!

monker59 wrote:Once I get access to restricted areas

Do you think acquiring magic you have no right to will help you or hinder you in that ambition?

king_of_keighley: I like your attitude, but I don't think this guy has any intention of doing the right thing by the creators of the effects he's ripped off by buying something he's already got.

How corrupt the magic world has become. I don't even think it's people wanting to know the information. As stated before, a lot of people probably take credit for the tricks they steal. So all in all, I think it's more greed than anything. People wanting their ego stroked for these amazing tricks that they have stolen from people simply trying to make a living. At least that's how I see it, and that's what I think is going on here.

I do not claim that the tricks I learn on the Internet are mine. I never say "Look, here's something that I figured out on my own." I would never stoop to the level of claiming someone's work for my own.

azraelws6 wrote:After about a year on this forum, I have seen the light. Acquiring new tricks cost under $20 in the form of Royal Road to Card Magic and Complete Course in Magic.

You will FREAK OUT at the amount of material you will have for such an insanely ridiculous low price. After having picked up these 2 books (along with Bobo's modern coin magic) I can honestly say to have NO PITY for those who claim they don't have enough money to buy this and that. If you can afford it, then go out and purchase the latest one-trick wonder DVD (some of which are in fact quite impressive and well-done) [...]

There's a great piece of advice. I fully agree with you. By buying RRTCM, EATCT (Erdnase), Card College or any other book, you will learn so much magic and you will be taught so many sleights and other basics foundations of magic that will give you the tools to create magic that only your imagination will put a limit to. All the small details will be broken down for you so you really get it right and can perform well made magic. If you want to complement the books with a dvd because it's more visual, that's a good way to increase understanding. Wilson's RRTCM and Daryl's Encyclopedia are a couple of examples of good material.

A lot of sense is being talked and I'm glad that we have had a bit of a debate on here with well thought ideas and opinions about the situation.

Not that i want to pour fuel on the flame or anything but its too easy to say buy RRTCM and thats all you'll need as there are 100's of things to learn. I have mentioned in previous posts RRTCM is like the bible of magic. In that i mean it is a great starting point, but is also like the bible in the way it is written. eg "use the third phalanx of your little finger on the inner upper end of the deck", you kind of need a base knowledge of magic to fully understand it. Some of the tricks are seriously seriously dated and tricks which fully rely on the glide etc definitely cannot be used. In my experience Laymen need to be given more credit, i used to get a lot of "why are you dealing from the bottom??" - good point!

The point is i believe that you need to look around at what everyone else is doing, read books (plural) watch DVD's, look at what get's good reactions and with that pool of knowledge decide which way you want to develop your performing. You can't do this with one book, you need a pool of knowledge from everywhere and however you get this is up to you personally.

Anyhow that's me out, i can imagine this debate going on and on and it seems more like an argument now.

If onlt he hadn't put the line "while i was searching for tutorials" in the first post...ha ha The smallest splash can create ripples that run for miles.

If maybe some of you could give me links to sites where I could get magic tricks at a lower price, I would be motivated to move away from YouTube tutorials.

(I'm talking under the $50 range, I'm sixteen and broke.)

monker59 wrote:If maybe some of you could give me links to sites where I could get magic tricks at a lower price, I would be motivated to move away from YouTube tutorials.

(I'm talking under the $50 range, I'm sixteen and broke.)

Have you tried the search facility?