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I see Derren Brown is not into religion and sees it as a bit of a con. I think his reasoning is good though. However it does come across as patronising to those who do have faith and who don't feel that they are intellectually inadequate in any way.

I love performing magic in churches and share the Christian message through using the tricks as a visual aid. I think God is okay with that.

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Basically you're preaching the "power" of God through deception? That just doesn't seem ethical or righteous to me at all.

Josh Clarke wrote:Basically you're preaching the "power" of God through deception? That just doesn't seem ethical or righteous to me at all.

I agree. It's like using cold reading or metal bending to promote 'Magick' or psychic abilities. Using pure trickery and deception to promote faith is (in my book) unethical. It's no better than snake oil sellers. What you're doing is a con.

People who have faith seem patronizing to those who don't. Derren made that point in his book. The "You have no faith, but I'll pray for you" attitude is more patronizing than "This is what science and logic shows; you're preaching something that is wrong." one. I don't mind people being religious, but if you push your faith on other's (in particular, me) you're crossing the line.

Either way, you're just advertising your ebook, so I doubt this thread's going to last very long.[/i]

q8rev wrote:share the Christian message through using the tricks as a visual aid. I think God is okay with that.
Blessings

Must be lovely to know what god thinks - Einstein would have been jealous!


Lee

I am a born again atheist myself, yet I dont think what he is talking about is unethical. He is not saying that he uses tricks as 'proof' of gods power (i.e. its real, and god is doing it, which would be unethical), but more as a story telling tool. To quote Derren Brown, 'he is being honest in his deception' (or something like that).
I do agree with the point that if they are going to preech their beliefs, then they should be prepared to have someone challenge them just as paaionately.

a synical person would say you are using your first post to hark your own download.
personaly i don't care either way, you can wrap magic up in any wrapper you like at the end of the day you do it to entertain or for profit, whichever path you take be happy with it.

Religion, what a load of tosh!

The true religion is Buddhism, no all mighty beings there, all about ones innerself.

Christians are masters at moving the goalposts. The bible says X is wrong and you shouldn't do it, but X is fun and christians want to do it, so they'll twist it ever so slightly and rename it 'christian X' and it's all good.

Music, films, magic, just about anything you can think of, there's a special 'christian' version of it (search the internet, see for yourself), changed just enough to make it acceptable to them.

If you want to be a christian, then you have to accept there are certain things your religion forbids – if you don't like it maybe christianity isn't for you.

Only $14.99 bit much Not that I am interested in this stuff just thought it may sell on ebay some people buy anything...

TC all

I wonder what God makes of me? Probably not a lot. I'm doomed I tell you, doomed.

See you all in hell (or not).

If you really want to freak yourself out, look up Chick Publications on Google - and no, despite the title it is not a porn site! But it is very frightening. These people are amongst us. Be afraid.

themagicand wrote:

I wonder what God makes of me? Probably not a lot.

Mandrake think's that you're OK but need to practice your muscle reading a little more

G'day there
Its funny, this topic comes up on every forum i have been on and it never seems to go any where or end very well. I am a Christian myself and i believe that magic can be used to preach the bible.
However this debate always ends up with Christians offending no Christians and visa versa. Then everyone gets in a tiff and its just not worth it. If you are a Christian you need to make a decision for yourself whether you believe it to be "Ethical" to use magic to preach possibly look in the bible and see what God says about it or pray and ask him.
And non Christians just have to respect your decision even if they don't agree with it one bit.

Thats just my two cents

magic can be used in most situations, as far as I can see no one has been offended AS YET!!!! my gripe is trying to sell an E-Book.
We don't have 2 cents here so i'll go 5p worth.

TC ALL.

Hello everyone,

I often use the language of Buddhism when performing magic. It is becoming part of my patter, in a general kind of way. I do this not to promote Buddhism. I do this as a means of interacting with the spectator. As a way to engage the spectator, provide some vaguely plausible reason for impossible effects and to provide cover for doing sneaky stuff.

More recently since getting into the more mental side of magic I've started using the language of remote viewing, ESP, MKUltra, mind control experiments and psychic phenomena.

I do not feel I am promoting either Buddhism or paranormalism (or what ever it's called!) in using this patter, but then that's not really what I'm trying to do.

When I approach a table one of the first things I say, after ascertaining whether they want to see some magic, id that I am going to lie to them. I tell them it is all a deception and that none of it is real. I've recently started quoting what Derren Brown says at the start of his show (can you believe that until this week I'd never seen his show? I don't watch television so I never really get to see magicians.). I do this because I have had people believe I've got spooky powers, which is obviously untrue.

As far as using magic to promote religion goes...

Tricky one, that. I suppose it depends on your intentions. I think it is unethical to use magic to somehow prove the validity or supremacy of your religion. It's just untrue. But if you are using a religious language as window dressing in order to entertain people then I think it's a little different.

Anyway, it's late. Or early. I'm going to go to bed now and hope it's not raining when I wake up!

All the best
Gary