talkmagic.co.uk

Hi,
I am trying to get the elmsley count to look natural. I'm basing most of my technique on the first few results in google (for elmsley count) and some youtube videos. Some of them are slightly different, but same basic idea, but i just can't make it look natural - it always looks like there are either 3 cards, or it looks (to me, anyway) quite obviously some type of fake count (which of course .. it is ... ;p)

edit - the title was meant to end "real"

I had a few problems with this originally. I started off using Vernon's method of doing it at the fingertips. Too flashy.

I count the cards into my left hand using a dealer-like grip, if you can imagine it, pulling the cards off with the left thumb.
This gives a bit more natural cover and allows my counting hand to naturally square the cards as I count. I'm not going to try and decribe the exact grip as this would be too complicated - just experiment with a few grips unitl you find one that works.

Most importantly though, I try to keep my hand flowing naturally - not too fast, not too slow with a constant speed throughout. Remember, the count is not a 'move' as such, and you certainly shouldn't make a move out of it.
There shouldn't be too much attention on the cards as you count, and the manner in which you count should reflect this. In other words, be natural! You should be able to do the sleight without thinking, so that you can patter as you count.

Oh aye...

I'm basing most of my technique on the first few results in google (for elmsley count) and some youtube videos.

Marvo Marky wrote:I had a few problems with this originally. I started off using Vernon's method of doing it at the fingertips. Too flashy.

I count the cards into my left hand using a dealer-like grip, if you can imagine it, pulling the cards off with the left thumb.
This gives a bit more natural cover and allows my counting hand to naturally square the cards as I count. I'm not going to try and decribe the exact grip as this would be too complicated - just experiment with a few grips unitl you find one that works.

Most importantly though, I try to keep my hand flowing naturally - not too fast, not too slow with a constant speed throughout. Remember, the count is not a 'move' as such, and you certainly shouldn't make a move out of it.
There shouldn't be too much attention on the cards as you count, and the manner in which you count should reflect this. In other words, be natural! You should be able to do the sleight without thinking, so that you can patter as you count.


Oh aye...

I've mainly been doing it the fingertips way, i'll try more with a "propper" grip.

Marvo Marky wrote:

I'm basing most of my technique on the first few results in google (for elmsley count) and some youtube videos.

I just meant meant basing it on the "tutorial"/guides i've found on google/youtube

thanks

When I do the elmsley count, I use an almost "mechanics grip", and use patter to cover what I am actually doing. The key I'm afraid is practice- Every time I went in a car anywhere for a period of time took a deck with me to practice my elmsley count. I found that it was one of those thing- for me anyway (along with "illusive coin pass" in Bobo) that no matter how I followed the instructions in the booklet or no matter how hard I deviated from them, I just couldn't get it. So the only answer I'm afraid is just lots of PRACTICE. When I use it, I tend to count the cards from the palms of my hands as opposed to from the tips. If you find that a bit cryptic then please PM me and I'll explain. I acn't really say much more without basically copying the other advice that has been given to you. By the way, I'd learn the elmsley from a book/DVD and NOT from google or a youtube vid. We're not really keen on that sorry... anyway, keep practicing and I hope it comes well for you eventually

cymru1991 wrote:When I do the elmsley count, I use an almost "mechanics grip", and use patter to cover what I am actually doing. The key I'm afraid is practice- Every time I went in a car anywhere for a period of time took a deck with me to practice my elmsley count. I found that it was one of those thing- for me anyway (along with "illusive coin pass" in Bobo) that no matter how I followed the instructions in the booklet or no matter how hard I deviated from them, I just couldn't get it. So the only answer I'm afraid is just lots of PRACTICE. When I use it, I tend to count the cards from the palms of my hands as opposed to from the tips. If you find that a bit cryptic then please PM me and I'll explain. I acn't really say much more without basically copying the other advice that has been given to you. By the way, I'd learn the elmsley from a book/DVD and NOT from google or a youtube vid. We're not really keen on that sorry... anyway, keep practicing and I hope it comes well for you eventually

Hi,
thanks for the reply. Guess it is just down to more practise. I tend to learn moves like this while watching tv (when there's nothing actually decent on), i've had a fair amount of hours on this (and am much better than my first attempts but still not natural enough. it *seems* like an easy move, its just getting it perfect that's hard ).

as for the "I'd learn the elmsley from a book/DVD and NOT from google or a youtube vid. We're not really keen on that sorry... " heh ... sorry. (don't personally see what the problem is, its not "pirated" vids/text on youtube/etc. Could be just the same as a friend, who knows the trick, giving the basic method (to learn, not telling someone just after doing the trick). [but i don't really want to get into this lol. thanks for the help, i'll keep at it ]

ash506 wrote:as for the "I'd learn the elmsley from a book/DVD and NOT from google or a youtube vid. We're not really keen on that sorry... " heh ... sorry. (don't personally see what the problem is, its not "pirated" vids/text on youtube/etc. Could be just the same as a friend, who knows the trick, giving the basic method (to learn, not telling someone just after doing the trick). [but I don't really want to get into this lol. thanks for the help, I'll keep at it ]

Hi,
I don't want to sound as If I'm dishing out orders with that statement. It's just something that I picked up on when I first joined the forum. There have been loads of debates over youtube vids and I genuinely wasn't looking to start another one, and obviously I wasn't trying to sound off-hand/rude whatever. However, another advantage of learning out of a book/DVD is that you get much better instructions from (most probably) a pro, as opposed to little Jimmy "who found a cool move" (not that I'm stereotyping youtubers- I've got vids on there too). Anyway, keep practicing, and if you need any help, then PM me or restartthis thread ot whatever. I cna't be too specific, but I might be able to give you some pointers...

Hi Ash, I would try what has been mentioned so far. Hold the cards at the bottom right hand corner with thumb on top and index and middle fingers on the right edge and bottom edge respectively (hard to explain but it is the same grip you end up in if you do a push off DL and pivot the card on the heel of your hand, it's very secure).
Pull the card off with the thumb into a whole-handed dealer grip, try to get it at a nice casual, relaxed speed (not suspiciously fast) and only do the whole count as fast as you can comfortably do "the move".

Final advice would be the presentation... don't go "count with me as we make sure there are only four cards here, ready?", do the count as you say something like "so we take these four cards" or possibly "so I'll hold these one, two, three, four cards and...", or my preferred version, "I don't know whether (your card/the joker etc) is 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th" or "I don't know which of these four cards is yours..." - this pulls focus away from the number of the cards to the position of the card in question. They will start thinking "I wonder where my card is", or even "I bet he does know...", but whatever they think they will hopefully have sub-consciously accepted that there are only 4 cards there because it seems not to be the issue at hand.

It's a lynchpin of misdirection - make them think that something else, be it keeping their hand tightly closed to never taking their eye off the box on the table, is more important than the innocent counting or dealing of cards.

P.S. This is what they don't tell you on YouTube. So buy a book or a DVD!

Farlsborough wrote:P.S. This is what they don't tell you on YouTube. So buy a book or a DVD!

Yeah this is a problem. Quite often with DVDs you get the originator of the move teaching it, showing subtleties and variations. Not so on Youtube, and naturally you can't tell whether or not the Youtuber actually knows what he or she is doing.

Good luck with the move and practise well!

Mark.

I'm going to go the slightly different way on advice here. First I would learn the elmsley method, but learn it in the context of Vernon's twisting the Aces. ( I can't believe I just said that as I don't like vernon). But still it is easy to learn it that way. And the odd fingertip handling works in the context of the effect and is easier to learn, (in my not so humble opinion). Once you know it inside out and backwards Then go into the palm thing. Play around and see what works for you. As for youtube? After watching most of the carp on there (I transposed the r and a) I found that the people teaching the moves, really can't do them properly. So by all means look at what they are doing and then you know what not to do.

The catch with my advice here is that once you are comfortable with one method you may find it difficult to switch to a more 'natural' looking method. So just keep that in mind.

I've said it before an will again if you're looking to get the Elmsley Count nailed then get a copy of Queens out of Control and practice practice practice.

Apart from the practice (have I mentioned that? ) you get a lovely routine to boot which makes the practice far more enjoyable.

dat8962 wrote:I've said it before an will again if you're looking to get the Elmsley Count nailed then get a copy of Queens out of Control and practice practice practice...

That's what I was going to say. I believe QOOC uses about ten Elmsley counts. My Elmsley is now as near perfect as I am going to get it; it looks exactly the same as a genuine count (even if I do say so myself). But only because I've been practicing for years (not continuously, you understand).

When I started out I had terrible trouble with an elmsley count, so I used a 2 for 2 switch biddle count until I mastered it. That was a very useful move to learn as I found it more flexible than the plain old elmsley, especially for tricks like NFW.

Anyway, yes, practise makes perfect, and you'll know when you've got it when you can do it in the mirror with Bee Cards (yes, it's possible - the trick is not to push with your thumb, just pull with your index finger).

As for making it look realistic - simply watch yourself counting 4 cards elmsley style in the mirror and try to replicate what you see. Personally I prefer doing it from a mechanics grip as the classical fingertip grip seems an unnatural way to hold cards, plus it's difficult to get into without a "magic twist". A patter suggestion from Jumping Gemini is to say you're "reversing the order" which is excellent misdirection for anyone following you too closely. Good luck

bmat wrote:I can't believe I just said that as I don't like vernon.

Brilliant! The Godfather of close-up magic, and you're not a fan! I'm teasing you - I presume you're referring to a dislike of many tricks that are "Vernon's such-and-such, which is fair enough... however, you can almost guarantee there will be a Vernon move or Vernon influenced move in every card trick you do!

Also, tiw, I would have thought it would be easier with Bee cards because the card edges are less distinct?

Anyhoo, I think one thing we all agree on is the source material at question is poor at best.

Sorry if my meaning wasn't clear regarding Bee Cards. I was referring to how you'd practise an Elmsley count, i.e. with a card reversed.

Having a border is a god send when doing effects like Triumph, but something like "Twisting The Aces" is still doable without a border if you stay relaxed. If you practise without borders you'll find you're naturally relaxed when you do a trick with them, which is the best way to make the count "look natural".

Hey,
No, you're absolutely right, I wasn't thinking straight. Of course it's harder with Bees, I was forgetting about the whole reason for doing an Elsmley and just thinking about doing the count with all the cards the same way.

...for some stupid deluded reason