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Oh my God! Are they still selling vacuum cleaners door to door? I did it 45 years ago. I was told by the sales manager not to disturb people at a certain time of the evening since everyone would be watching Coronation Street. That programme is still running. I wonder if sales managers still give the same instruction.

I learned absolutely nothing from the experience except that I was not cut out to sell vacuum cleaners door to door. In a whole month I sold one and that was a fluke. I knocked on a door and started to give my spiel about conducting a survey (I wonder if they still do that) and before I could started properly the chap said, "Sorry mate, I can't stop to talk to you now. I am going into town to buy a vacuum cleaner" I spluttered "I am selling vacuum cleaners" He looked surprised and said "Really, what have you got? Come on in and show me"

That was the only one I ever sold. The ironic thing is that because of the weird pay structure I ended up getting LESS money than if I hadn't sold it. It would take up too much space to explain why.

I suppose I did learn one thing though. The sales manager was a Canadian named Henry. I remember he had a crew cut. I did the paddle trick which I am still doing to this day and I used to say "May I borrow a hair. You don't have any dandruff do you?" He gave me hell for it and said I should never mention dandruff. He was right and I never said it again.

That was all I ever learned.

I think a far better plan for a neophyte magician is to get a job as a grafter. They are those people you see selling non stick pans and paint pads at exhibitions. Silly Americans who cannot speak the Queen's English properly call them pitchmen.

Grafters know far more about showmanship than any magician. They know how to time their words and they know how to get money out of people. They learn about human psychology and they learn how to hold an audience. And of course they learn to scam people.

This is of course the most important skill imaginable. Most magicians have led sheltered lives of course and are innocent in the ways of the world.

How unfortunate.

mark lewis wrote:
This is of course the most important skill imaginable. Most magicians have led sheltered lives of course and are innocent in the ways of the world.

How unfortunate.

I do think that teenagers who want to become professional magicians should be forced to give up magic for several years, and go out into the big wide world, get drunk a lot, get laid, get arrested, spend a year working in a foreign country, work in a factory, socialise with people they would never normally come in contact with, then return to the world of magic more worldly-wise and experienced and with a slightly haunted look in thier eyes like all good magcians should have.

Either that or work a few wedding receptions for free at the Barnsley Working Mens Club. That would be a shortcut to the haunted look in your eyes. And the drunk bit. And getting arrested. And laid.

Ah,Well Mark Lewis, Like I said I'm not a magician im not a seasoned pro. But I am if I can say so a really good salesmen. And yes they do go door to door Though like you said its prolly just not your thing selling in that way. And why I said when you have a Kirby ring meaning you sold 15 vacuums in one month. Is a big thing when you go to a person looking for salesmen and you can show you can work with people and sell a product no one wants 15 times in one month.

The thing is instead of using the standard survey you have to sell your self, You have to wear the right clothes you can't take no for a answer, If they don't tell you no 5 times you do not leave. It is not the product you are selling its yourself why me and many others in sale's love people who go through hell of vacuum selling and prove that they can.

1.Knock on a door
2.Get in the house
3.Sell the vacuum and close the sell

I think once you can that your people skills improve alot. Also im sorry if being a American is a bad thing. I was just speaking from a sales man point of view that dealing with Kirby for 3 months with a open mind can help you in many ways.

Also Mark Lewis, I agree grafting can help you about Psychology, But as a Social psychologist with my bachelors in two years I can tell you I think at a young age going into vacuum sells can be very rewarding for the skills you can learn.

P.S I am a Sales man learning to become a magician, And the way I see it is, As a magician to sell the tricks I need to sell myself. So maybe im wrong in this thinking and if so I would love to hear why.

P.S.S Also maybe why im confused I did not lead a safe happy life at all and I hope that was not directed at me, but this is not the issue, Im just confused if coming from my Sales history and trying to work it into Magic presenting is just that bad of a idea?

I am MARK LEWIS and cannot possibly be wrong.

Do you really have a massive ego or are you just kidding?

I totally agree about grafting. I worked a table for homeschooling start-up and learned loads from it. I was pretty good, too, which is one of the reasons I've become interested in business/sales. (Our profit went up 50% the day I worked for them). But I'll def not be selling vacuum cleaners or autos; I'd get bored to easily. Hopefully I'll get into a good enough school (I'm praying for Princeton or Duke) that I'll be choosing who I want to work for, not vice versa.

On the subject of practicing patter... I actually read Dale's book Effective Speaking and thought it was great. He recommended that you write out the entire thing or bullet points, then go up there and just talk (not from memory). Reciting/reading something might be good for beginners or people who just have trouble with that kind of thing, but for me and others I think Carnegie's method is best.

As for the hallowed look... I'm a Christian, so your route isn't really my thing. It's more about your mannerisms than anything else. Every move is calculated and known precisely, but it is fluent and natural looking.

A while back Mark (I'd be happy with help from anyone, though) asked if I had a single trick. What about, say, Hand to Mouth by Dan and Dave Buck?

Lewis wrote:...myself who has worked for all sorts of audiences all over the world and who has earned his living for over 40 years doing magic.

Shortly thereafter he wrote:Are they still selling vacuum cleaners door to door? I did it 45 years ago.

So you are over 85 years old?

Another logical fallacy. Mr. Jay, please stop badgering this thread.

Michael Jay wrote:

Lewis wrote:...myself who has worked for all sorts of audiences all over the world and who has earned his living for over 40 years doing magic.

Shortly thereafter he wrote:Are they still selling vacuum cleaners door to door? I did it 45 years ago.

So you are over 85 years old?

I thought that was actually pretty amusing Michael.

themagicwand wrote:I do think that teenagers who want to become professional magicians should be forced to give up magic for several years, and go out into the big wide world, get drunk a lot, get laid, get arrested And laid.

Here Here.

I got into magic when I was 24 or so... so my life had already been filled with debauchery..

I prefer it this way

Don't the Amish do something like that?!

BlueCuzco wrote:

I am MARK LEWIS and cannot possibly be wrong.

Do you really have a massive ego or are you just kidding?

Well done BC, you've distilled a thousand fiercely argumentative talkmagic posts into one pertinent question!

It was me btw, but hey, what does it matter

You've chosen quite a difficult trick to exemplify what we've been discussing because it's a very simple, visual trick - there is almost no patter needed, as with the majority of Buck twins stuff (And good job frankly, because I get the impression conversation isn't their strong point...)

But presentational aspects to think about here would be - building up the ambitious card portion of the routine, so that this is what they are expecting for the finale. Also, once the X card has been pushed into the deck, holding the deck away from you and doing some fancy cuts or levering the top card up so it looks like you're about you reveal it, and pausing for so long that they look at you to see what's wrong etc.

These sort of tricks require almost no patter, unless you want to go down the slightly cheesy road of giving some pseudo-scientific explanation... "most people think extra ink on the card would make it heavier, it actually makes it lighter, so much so that it rises to the top..." - personally I don't recommend that.

Perhaps more importantly is the sort of person you want to be when you do the magic, and as has been identified, that person needs to be likeable. Are you a card shark, a joker, a mystic... there may not be any real patter for this trick, but how are you going to approach people? How are you going to introduce the cards and start things off, and how are you going to finish?

In general, I don't think Mark and I are poles apart in terms of presentational preparation as it might appear. I suggest starting from the more scripted, "overprepared" side, Mark suggests starting off a little more "spontaneously" - I think we probably find ourselves somewhere near each other in the middle, suggesting that you put in the practice, know where each routine is going but allow yourself to be flexible.

I can assure our American friends that there is nothing wrong with being American except that by definition it means that you are not British. The disadvantages in that state of affairs are so obvious that of course there is no necessity in going into details over the matter.

If you examine the posts of Mr Jay you will of course see what I mean. He seems to think he is a wit. I can only say that he is certainly half way there.

I was selling vacuum cleaners 45 years ago. Then 5 years later I was earning my living doing magic. I don't see what his problem is except that he cannot add up. No doubt this is because the US educational system is one year behind the Canadian one and THREE years behind the British one.

I can assure our vacuum cleaner salesman that I was not directing any particular remarks to him so he can rest easy.

The young man from Tennessee has been given good advice from me. I would advise him not to question me on my ego. It is a wise 15 year old who can put up with the idiosyncracies of the teacher if he wishes to learn. Ignore the teacher and absorb the lesson.

Alas our Tennessee child still does not understand what a grafter is. I am not inclined to tell him at the moment. Suffice it to say that it has nothing to do with home schooling.

His religion is of no concern to me whatsoever. I am a holy reverend myself but I would not want to horrify him too much by explaining what church I belong to. I will merely say that belief in God is not necessary therefore one can sin as much as one wants. A terribly convenient religion if I may say so.

I do not remember asking if he had a single trick. If he hasn't I would suggest he get some pronto. It is rather difficult to present magic without actually knowing any.

I am pleased however that he has read Effective Speaking by Dale Carnegie (actually edited heavily by his wife). The advice about learning patter or speech is dead on and accurate. Get the main headings in your mind, have a rough idea what to say and then say it. If you continue to say it over a long period of time the patter will then fit you better than if you learned it mechanically off by heart.

I am glad he has got something right. However methinks he had better learn a few tricks to go with it.

1) Sell yourself - this includes acting the part (of whatever character you may be playing - a stoner-surfer character in a suit is just plain wrong for example)

=2) Make sure you know the point of your patter - not the patter word-for-word, but make sure the patter has a point, and you can spontaneously reach the point

=2) make sure your misdirection is top notch. Learn when and where naturally misdirective moments occur and capitalise on them. If none occur - make some.

4) Make sure the sleights are all as neat and invisible as can be for those arsey audience members.


That's the formula for my magic and it works pretty damn well for me.

And yes, they are in descending order of importance.

EckoZero, Thank you for putting it out in those steps. I'm glad knowing my experience of selling myself won't be so much as a hindrance in this field.

Unlike most new comers it seems I'm worrying the most on how well my performance is and worrying less on the effect itself. Glad to know this isn't a huge problem.

I remember raising a point one time that if a trick has been successful then it will be described in terms of "what the magician did" instead of "what happened".

This may seem confusing or non-sensical but I'll try and explain what I mean.

"Yeah I just went to see a magician. There was this cool trick where I picked a card at it was at the number I picked in the deck" - A description of a (presumably poorly presented) Card At Any Number effect.

"Yeah I just went to see a magician. He did this really cool trick where he told me to pick a card and then he found it at the number that I picked" - the same trick described differently.


I deliberately avoided using the (almost real) exclamation mark off the second one to make it a more fair example of contrasting opinions on the same trick - but personally I would feel a lot better about the trick if I heard someone describing the effect as the latter.

"I picked a card, put it back in the deck and he found it" carries less oomph than "he got me to pick a card, he let me put it back in myself and then after some magical byplay he found my card".


How does this relate to my personal presentation guidelines?

Easy - in the first example the magician has clearly not sold himself enugh to be part of the experience. The experience is just the magic.
In the second one the magician has indeed sold himself well enough that the magician himself is an important aspect of the effect.

And if he's not - then something isn't going quite right...

As a further point, I am actually fairly disappointed with myself tonight.

I went to the Mentalist Night at IMS tonight and suffered terribly from the nerves of:

performing in front of a stage audience
having fluffed up my packing and therefore opening with a trick I hadn't had chance to develop yet
appearing on the same stage as people I knew would blow me out of the water

Consequently my presentation wasn't exactly what I would accept as par.
Why? In my nervous state I did not manage to sell myself.
Whilst I knew my patter, had excellently devised misdirection and did everything invisibly I had failed to sell myself.
As such I left feeling disappointed in my own performance - and I'm sure (all niceties aside) many people present tonight would echo this sentiment.

Thank you again EckoZero, That whole post is everything I hope I can become as a Magician why in my other post and in my head im stuck more on how this will look and how I will look doing it.

It's the main reason why I am getting so in depth with magic is it allows such a great social experience. Plus most people remember me easily when I leave a room and I seem to have a knack for selling myself. So I am overjoyed that what I am hoping to achieve is considered a good path.

P.S Why I loved selling Vacuums was I would sell for a hour or so then end up spending several hours having dinner with the customer and just talking and having a good socializing with their family. Prolly one reason why OP I tend to stress it more then others will.