talkmagic.co.uk

Hi guys,

Odd title I know but I'm interested in getting you views and opinions here on this:

If you buy something from a magic shop, be it a gimmick or DVD etc, and you get home to find (as ALL of us here will have at one point) that you
have just bought a total ball of c*** (not the best) that does not do what it says on the
tin, or if it does, it's completely impractical to use in a real life setting.

Should you be entitled to a return and refund/exchange as you would be with any other product that you would buy in any other store, or would you rather honor the magicians "code" and respect the fact that you have a "secret" and like it or not that is the end of it?

Because under consumer law, your perfectly entitled to demand a refund provided your within a certain time and the product isn't damaged.

I understand that everything has to be taken in context but in general what would you say about this?

Where do you stand on this and does anyone have any stories in particular?

Cheers.

Most of will probably have plenty of stories where we've fallen victim to the hype of a trick but haven't bothered to try for a refund.

You probably could fight it but the time, effort and cost to take it all the way is probably not worth it for a number of reasons.

The first is that you'll probably be labelled as a poor magician for not making it work or giving it the time it deserves. Hundreds or even thousands of others have bought it and haven't returned it so it must be you.

Second, trying to explain to a layperson at trading standards or a small claims court just why it's impractical is not going to be fully understood, so you've paid and got it that far but you're still not odds on for a winner.

Ever felt like the odds are stacked against you even though you may well be right?

Surely not if the advertising or the description is misleading? there are rules about fitness for purpose and being as described, so saying that a card "visibly melts before your eyes" when it does no such thing must be grounds for a refund/compaint to trading standards.

Even setting aside the spurious argument about buying the secret (as the tricks are seldom marketed as being an intangible secret, but a tangible effect) doesn't really hold water.

(IMHO)

It's a common gripe If it genuinely does not do what it says on the tin, i.e. the advertising claims things that are untrue, I think you've got a chance of beating a refund out of the dealer and what's more, persuading them not to stock it again. Or even going round to the house of the creator with an angry mob of magi...

But so often it's just very "specifically" worded, and in those cases you just have to let it hone your hype-filtering skills. In the same way as anything that's not labelled "single malt scotch whiskey" isn't, you have to become accustomed to what is really meant. "No wires or magnets!" probably means thread etc... and anything subjective needs to be taken with one huge pinch of salt:
"Perfect for strolling magic" (if you carry around a little table)
"Can be done in a t-shirt and jeans" (if you wear a scarf and shoulderbag)

...and so on and so forth. Sad though it is, I don't think "it's not very practical" is going to get you very far!

Good points guys.... I think Kenton Knepper and Jay Sankey are the kings when it comes to over hype.

However (and I should have made it clearer but I had a headache when writing the post), what if your just not happy with the product, it's not suitable for you, you dont like the build quality or you thought the ideas presented in the DVD were already presented in the last 5 DVD's that the person released.... Jay Sankey.

Look at it the same way when you buy a jumper for example, you take it home and say "you know what, I don't like this so I'll take it back"...

I do realize that this could lead to ever product in the store being returned and a lot of secrets being learned for free essentially, but I think if you have justifiable reason against the product other than it being defective or misleading, why not?

Have magic shops not gotten away with selling absolute trash to us over the years but would make us feel guilty if we took it back? It goes against all consumer rights unless magic stores get some rights of their own to protect them?

I had a think about it today and thought it an odd situation considering the amount of junk I've bought and never returned.

There was recently a debate on this forum about the feasibility, pros and cons of copyrighting an effect or sleight. And although I can't fully remember, it seemed to come to the conclusion 'You can't copyright an effect without revealing it, which of course you shouldn't do, and that's unfair but unavoidable.'

And ultimately no trick can actually 'do' what it says on the tin, but it usually does say what the audience will perceive to happen if you perform it right. Imagine the advertising for a swami being 'lets you write on a piece of card'. That doesn't begin to describe what it does.

Everyone in the magic industry knows that c*** (not the best) will often get sold under the guise of flashy hype and misleading promises, but the people selling products are also unable to hold on to what they've invented due to people repackaging their effect with a slight deviation or addition, and selling it as a 'new' technique, so it goes both ways.

Ultimately this is a profession built and maintained around deception, and as such you must always be aware that no magic product can really do what it says it can do. It can just appear to do it, and sometimes only in the right setting.

It is unfair that it happened to you, just like it's unfair that it happened to all of us, but if returning effects after you know how there done did become allowed, it would set a dangerous trend for those willing to abuse the system.

I agree fully Jean, that is indeed the problem.

What I do like is one or two new sites have popped up lately saying that they will only sell products that they themselves believe in (Joshua Jays site being one).

It's for sure a bit of a catch 22, but I cant help but feel that we the consumer are on the downside of it, especially when it comes to internet shopping. It's one thing to walk into a store and see the item demo'd in front of your eyes, but quite another to see it in a flashy video with lots of sexy girls oooing and ahhing at the cool magi with metal music playing in the background and flashy graphics popping up on the screen....

At least we have on line magic reviews to guide us in some ways, but still.... they too can be misleading in their own ways, either the guy who bought it isn't capable of using the product, or the guy just wants to seem an advanced magician so he writes a positive review.

In saying that I have come across some incredibly well written reviews too and I always make sure to thank the guy who wrote it if possible.

It's a funny one chaps, a funny situation indeed. We are the only profession to have this "situation" are we not? You sure wouldn't get it with musicians, painters, writers, actors etc...

Also... I think if you have been buying from a store for awhile and built up a reputation with them, then it really shouldn't be a problem.

Maybe it could be something that you could earn as a "right" with the stores? Spend over X amount and gain a special trial status on products or something.

I do realize that will never happen but... You get what I'm saying.

I've done this lots of times and until about a month ago had a drawer full of c*** (not the best) that I'd bought and would never use. It all found it's way onto ebay in the end. It is frustrating when you buy something that turns out to be a load of old man's pants but that's just the way it goes. I always make sure that I check for reviews and ask advice from people around here before I go out and buy anything that's a little pricey.

Returns because you don't like something is not a given. Stores do this because they want to keep your custom, but they do not _have_ to take things back - witness signs in sales season that say 'no returns'.

You do not have any legal recourse to return a magic trick simply because you didn't like it when you got home, and if the shop has a sign saying 'no refunds' in view before you make the purchase, I think you have even less.

Now, if the item you bought is faulty, this is another matter, but the store is only obliged to replace, not refund the item.

Take care, Ian

There are so many products out there that are utter rubbish, which is why I always try and read reviews of something before I buy it. That will save a lot of annoyance when you get the thing and work out for yourself that it's poor. The 'Prime Cut' DVD is a perfect example of this - total b*llocks, and in my opinion worthy of a refund, but you could save yourself the bother just by reading some reviews of it first.

Even excellent effects have misleading blurbs, though. The description of '.PERFECTION' is fairly misleading (says all the cards match but they don't, there's a discrepant 1/3 of the deck you need to cop, amongst other things) and when I first watched the disc I was a little annoyed, but the effect itself is so brilliant that I soon forgot about it and just got on with the necessary practice, and it's now one of the strongest effects I perform.

I think what I'm trying to say is refunds are a bit of a different matter when it comes to magic, but if you always do the research beforehand you'll minimise the amount of disappointments.

IanKendall wrote:Returns because you don't like something is not a given.

True. There are some specific situations when a return is not enforceable, although it's not simply down to what the shop says. According to Consumer Direct (UK):

Consumer Direct wrote:When you can't cancel

Please note that there are circumstances when you cannot cancel unless the trader has given you a specific contractual right to do so.

These are if:

The trader has already started to provide the service within the cancellation period and you have agreed to this. You must have been told in writing - before the supplier agreed to carry out the service - that you would then lose your right to cancel.
You had the goods made to your specifications or personalised.
The items are likely to go off or deteriorate quickly, such as flowers or fresh foods.
The goods by their nature cannot be returned.
You have opened sealed software, CDs, DVDs etc.
They are newspapers, periodicals or magazines.
You bought betting, gaming or lottery services.
The price is dependent on fluctuations in the financial market.
Goods are clearly personalised

I guess the closest one would be the sealed software/DVD. I also guess that if you bought a PK ring and didn't like it you would be able to return it. If the shop refuses then it is in breach of the law. I do not know if UK consumer law recognises the sale of secrets as being outside of this list. My guess is not.

Wouldnt buying something of the net come under these laws :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_P ... ce_Selling)_Regulations_2000

Markdini wrote:Wouldnt buying something of the net come under these laws :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_P ... ce_Selling)_Regulations_2000

Yes. I believe that the advice provided by Consumer Direct is related to that.

Wikipedia wrote:The consumer has an automatic right to cancel and rescind the contract at any time from formation of the contract until seven working days after the goods are delivered

Consumer Direct wrote:When to cancel

You can cancel at any time until:

The end of the seventh working day after the day on which you receive your goods;

I think Kenton Knepper and Jay Sankey are the kings when it comes to over hype...

...you forgot about Hilford, Andrew Mayne, and a myriad of others that come to mind.


If you guys think this sort of misrepresentation is bad now, you should have seen what it was like back in the 60s & 70s... and we had to wait 4-8 weeks to receive the item that made us feel screwed.

Building interest and "perceived value" into a product is the proverbial name of the game. Sadly, most that innovate new effects don't have the resources for getting a professional marketing team to look at the idea in a way that will allow a less biased sense of sensationalism to be attached to it. Same goes for the shop-keeps trying to peddle it, most of whom simply ask the manufacturing source or creator, to render a short paragraph description.

But consider this as an add...

This is the ultimate of all secrets in the world of magic. With this guarded, ancient secret you will be able to vanish, produce and even transform items at will, right in the palm of your hand...

I could go further with the hype, but just this idea would lead the majority of us... especially the less seasoned & educated... to jump at it and say to ourselves "I've Got to Have It!" But when it shows up in the post and we open the little box hosting a plastic thumb, we find ourselves fit to be tide.

There is not one word in that ad copy that could not stand up in court when it comes to the claims associated with the gimmick. What was left out however, is the fact that the buyer will need to obtain other supporting materials (books) and invest a good deal of time learning how to master said device. Oddly, I could apply that same Ad Copy to the world of Grand Illusion, changing only the "in the palm of your hand" line, so as to pitch the wonderful old Modern Cabinet.

Harry Anderson shared a thing long ago, I believe it was in his parody publication called WEENIE Magazine but I could be wrong. Nonetheless, it outlined what terms used in magic advertising actually mean such as "This is a limited edition" e.g. we don't expect to sell a lot of these. Or, "A Classic...", meaning that most have seen it so many times that they yawn, just at the sight of it coming to the stage... etc. Though pure sarcasm on Harry's part, there remains a huge chunk of truth to it which places the onus on our shoulders as the consumer...

When it comes to magic and the horrid CUPS condition... well, let's just say that until you've been around a while and developed that unique sense of jadedness when it comes to dealing with magic merchants and self-claimed innovators, you will be subjected to this sort of scenario; buying into the hype rather than seeing around it, asking what's not there?

When it comes to returning an effect, few merchants will allow it until they get to know you. There are two key reasons for this;

a.) Many will (and have) bought effects just to learn the secret and then wish to get their money back. it's an old game that's known a whole new sense of popularity in recent years.

b.) The shop keep does not know you and may assume the above e.g. "All Sales Are Final" (and because trade secrets are involved, they can make that stick most of the time). BUT, when you've establish a rapport with that merchant, the paradigm can shift in that he/she now knows that you tend to keep most of what you buy and don't cause headaches.

A great example of this is a recent situation I had with an item I purchased from Stevens Magic that down right SUCKED and was nothing close to what I was lead to believe it was supposed to be. Because I've done business with them for more than a decade or two, there was not problem getting In-House Credit towards my next purchase when I returned it. This is because of the long term relationship as well as the fact that they know I'm a working pro with critical points of view when it comes to fulfilling performance needs.

It does not matter what industry you are dealing with Promotional Hype will ALWAYS be part of the presentation -- the lure that sucks us in. Just look at how sex and ego (in particular) are manipulated by advertisers when it comes to clothing, body wash, cars, sound systems, even iPods and Tv shows... it's all based on deliberate psychological bits of manipulation, promising a fat slob such as myself, that we can look like Brad Pitt just by wearing a certain pair of jeans and using a particular cologne... I think not!

The bottom line is quite simple though... BUY BOOKS!

I can assure you of two things if you go this course;

1.) You will get far more bang for the buck ventured
2.) Chances are very high that you will find the foundation to the effect you were tempted to

purchase or else something even superior to it within a relatively brief period of time doing what magic buffs have done for decades -- Reading & Learning from Books

Hope this helps