talkmagic.co.uk

Well, I started out in magic. Later I got into mentalism. I did my last mentalism related performance a good while ago now, and I'm starting to feel it just wasn't for me. Meanwhile, I am very interested in returning to magic. However I want it to be very strong. You see, I wasn't in magic very long to start with before I got on the mentalism wagon, so I don't know too much about it. I want magic that's as strong as mentalism. This all may sound obvious and usuall, but I need to show people that magic isn't a step backwards. I just want people to see something illusionary that changes that "trick" idea of illusions. That makes it hold up to that greatness. I was thinking of something seperate from card and coin magic or traditional things that one sees done many times. I want something like a strong disappearance. This is why "The Gecko" thing caught my eye. But I still wasn't certain it was as good as it showed itself to be. I saw it on some place like Penguin, which has its silly ad tricks every once in a while, being more of a sales pitch than of assistance. Now, I don't have the Raven, but a long time ago I overheard someone talking about how it works. Anyways, the gecko seems like it would be similar. However, I'm not really certain how each exactly works.
So, really, is the gecko worth it's buy? Would a raven work as well with minor changes? (Hope this is all not exposing) And are there any other strong disappearance tricks?

Thank you.

there's demos around if you search online...

it does work..i bought one out of curiosity...

but if you're just getting into magic again, why bother buying something that lets you do one thing? when you could buy a book and learn many things...

I really wouldn't bother with either of the gimmicks, grab yourself a copy of Bobo and learn how to do these effects using sleights. If you want some ideas of things other than cards Mark Wilson's book really is worth reading as are all of Karl Fulves books.

Remember that the magic is only as strong as you make it, otherwise it'll always just be a trick.

Allow me to repeat myself for the (lost count as to how many times) its not the trick that is going to make you great, its the performance. Sorry there is no way around it, you can go out and purchase the best vanisher money has to offer your still just a guy or a gal trying doing a magic trick. It is up to you to put some life into it. Al Goshman doing his sponge balls. heck its 'only' a sponge ball routine I've seen thousands of routines yet Goshman's was magic. Why? Juan Tamariz I won't even begin. Like him or not David Blain killed with a freakin ID and folding coin.

When the effect and the routine and the style and the performer all match then you have artistry. Too many just go for the effect and hope it does everything for you. It doesn't. So many will argue its the effect that does it and in a sense that is correct but it is only the effect if it is in the right hands.

I'll go with a contemporary. Shawn Farquar can pick up just about anything and make it kick butt. I can tell you he knows so much it is mind boggling. Yet when you know him and see what he 'performs' in front of an audience for money you realize how little he performes compared to the vastness of what he can do. Why? Because he knows himself and he knows what he can make work for him. Shawn once slaughtered me with a key card. We laughed until we cried and I can tell you it was not the effect it was all him and his performance of it.

So go ahead make that next purchase that will make you a superstar, if you are not a good actor make it an acting class, or improve or something. You gave up on magic because it wasn't 'amazing' you went to mentalism, now back to magic and in the end it is not going to make a difference. Here is a hint, there is a lot less acting in magic a lot less having to 'prove' yourself you mentalists know what I'm trying to say. So in that regard stick with magic and have one less thing to worry about. Of course magic as its difficulties as well (but its a lot more entertaining and comedic then mentalism) in my not so humble opinion.

If you're thinking about returning to magic, and if you're into close up magic, then please look into David Stone's Real Secrets Of Magic. After seeing him perform, you'll get enough evidence that you can show your audiences 'real magic'.

Ditto on the previous posts. Your performance will determine everything. You can also look into your mentalism act (maybe you recorded it ? ) and see what you didn't like about yourself. There's a lot you can do to help yourself before giving up on mentalism.

It sounds to me as if you dived into mentalism a little too early. As poeple have already said, it really doesn't matter what the trick is, it's how you perform it that is going to make the difference between and impossible miracle and a party trick.

Chasing all the gimmicks is never going to help if you're performance is bad. Go out and buy yourself some good books, books that teach the basic techniques, learn these, practice these and you'll be far better off in the long run.

Thank you for your very thoughtful responses. I'll look into some of that material.

However, there is one point on which I find myself disagreeing with you.
This, "It doesn't matter what the trick is," idea seems to me to be a silly cliché of sorts. I feel sometimes like people say it because they think it makes them up to be a very mature magician to say such things. However, it does matter what the trick is. I think that perhaps what the old phrase really meant originally was, "It's not just about the trick," In other words, "You can't just be a good magician because you have a good trick," and that would of course, be true. It is not just the gimmick and idea that matter; there is much work to be put into performance.
I would be very hard pressed to agree in saying that it doesn't matter what the trick is, because it does, to a certain extent.


Thank you, though, for the kind words of advice.


Much appreciated.

thats the thing though, we could take one "trick", say something from RRTCM - you and i go and perform it...

they may hate my performance of it, and
love your performance of it...

the difference would be "us"...

JakeThePerformer wrote:Thank you for your very thoughtful responses. I'll look into some of that material.

However, there is one point on which I find myself disagreeing with you.
This, "It doesn't matter what the trick is," idea seems to me to be a silly cliché of sorts. I feel sometimes like people say it because they think it makes them up to be a very mature magician to say such things. However, it does matter what the trick is. I think that perhaps what the old phrase really meant originally was, "It's not just about the trick," In other words, "You can't just be a good magician because you have a good trick," and that would of course, be true. It is not just the gimmick and idea that matter; there is much work to be put into performance.
I would be very hard pressed to agree in saying that it doesn't matter what the trick is, because it does, to a certain extent.


Thank you, though, for the kind words of advice.


Much appreciated.

Just because something is cliche does not make it incorrect. Having said that you are indeed correct. One magician will do a retention vanish and it will be a miracle, another may use a Raven and guess what? It will also be a miracle. Of course they both may suck. But it is not the apperatus it is how they perform with it.

However when you say (and I will paraphrase) that you are looking for a miracle can anyone tell me about the raven or whatever the case may be then you are looking in the wrong direction. The gimmick, effect, secret move is never going to be the miracle. It will be, no matter how cliche always be in your performance.

If I was a magic dealer, (and I was and the shop is still going very strong thank you, its a family business and I decided to get out of it for awhile) and you were to tell me, "Hey Mr. Magic dealer I'm looking to vanish an object, Here are the conditions I usually work in, here is my overall style, what do you recommend"? Then I would make a recomendation to you based on the perameters you have set, it may be a good book, it may be the raven (though I doubt it, sorry) and we would go from there. I'm certainly not going to sell you the next miracle. Why you ask, because you Mr. Magician are the miracle maker, all I can sell you is a couple of bits of stuff or some knowledge.

If you were to come into my shop and say, "Hey Mr Magic dealer I got out of magic because I didn't feel it was strong enough but I'm willing to give it another try what would you recommend that will make it look like I'm doing miracles"? I'd respond with any of the following. Tarbell book of magic volume one and read the introduction to the book, if you were in my shop asking me this you would be in Montreal so I would also recommend Taking Guy Cammirand's course. I'd also recomend you attend the club meetings because Montreal has a pool of great magicians who may be able to teach you a thing or two about magic and magicianship and entertaining. But I certainly would not recommend to you an effect or a gimmick, because they simply are not miracles. If you own magic tricks already, you already posses the physical tools to make miracles, now you just need the knowledge and experience and insight to know how to use them.

JakeThePerformer wrote:This, "It doesn't matter what the trick is," idea seems to me to be a silly cliché of sorts. I feel sometimes like people say it because they think it makes them up to be a very mature magician to say such things. However, it does matter what the trick is. I think that perhaps what the old phrase really meant originally was, "It's not just about the trick," In other words, "You can't just be a good magician because you have a good trick," and that would of course, be true. It is not just the gimmick and idea that matter; there is much work to be put into performance.
I would be very hard pressed to agree in saying that it doesn't matter what the trick is, because it does, to a certain extent.

I agree with you. But then again, everyone who has said 'it doesn't matter' agrees with you, because we all have tricks we just can't make work or wouldn't be seen dead performing. I don't know what that is for you, but for me it's silks and sponge balls. I could work on a silk/sponge ball routine for the rest of my life and I'd never find a way to make those props "true to me", as it were. Some people love doing silk stuff, and it fits their character, but they'd find my card stuff a tiresome bore. That's not ignorance or elitism, it's the simple fact that we all want different things from magic. So you're right, it does matter what the trick is.

I do second the recommendation of books over gimmicks though, that way you're more likely to stumble upon ideas of your own which is ultimately what gives you the satisfaction you crave.

Honestly, it really doens't matter what the trick is, I've seen Derren Brown perform some very very basic effects, things that I'd looked at and dismissed but with his presentation and showmanship they really were something very impressive.

But he's able to adapt those tricks to fit his character - on the other hand he's openly dismissed rope magic and sponge balls. So it does matter what the trick is, because it's all about what fits character.

"All about what fits his character" :shock:

I believe the first part of the task is to define just what that would be and have the DISCIPLINE to hold to that image and idea for more than a week or two... maybe even more than a few years.

I can bend, twist and mold most any effect into a theme that would fit my on stage persona or, more accurately speaking, the theme of the show I am doing. I've even presented the Buzz Saw in a comedy format, so it's really up to the "artist" to trace out what it is he/she is after and from that point, stay on track doing what is required in order to get there. That would mean the acquisition of the appropriate knowledge (first) and related skills (second) followed by presentation nuances/scripting & framing (third). Once these items are in place with each piece it's a matter of pulling each separate module (effect/routine) together, plugging them each into the show's skeleton so as to give the audience an enjoyable ride.

When it comes to "Character" most of us don't have a clue as to who or what that would be outside of some kind of psycho-fantasy we have about ourselves and what we project outwardly from the stage. Sadly, the majority of us will never be seen by the public, to be as masterful a showman (let alone, magician) as we believe we are... trust me on that; more of us stink than not, it's a sad and horrid truth, but the truth nonetheless. The question is however, "Why is this so?"

Mainly because we misplace priority (see the aforementioned three steps) and in so doing, forget to consume ample amounts of humble pie so as to be maluable, teachable, and willing to do what is required of us, so as to make that personal inner-vision our reality; we get too invested with the "that's neat" stuff that keeps coming out, that we loose our way, so to speak -- CUPS being the one addiction for which most all of us suffer and the one condition that causes both, our performance as well as the craft itself to suffer.

Getting Back to the Issue... Jake... you simply need to stop chasing every little thing out there and FOCUS! You need to actually LEARN THE BASICS -- how to walk before you try to run -- and stop bouncing from thing to thing (not only is such a non-productive course of action, it can prove an expensive one as well).

Memory serving me right, there are many reasons why Mentalism "isn't right for you"... some of your more personal points of view preventing you from following either of the common paths associated with said art form e.g. sticking with Family Magic, Kiddie Shows and even "Magic with a Message" would probably best fit the who and what of Jake. You just need to slow down enough so as to discover just who and what that may be and go from there.

You've been given some sound perspective here and in other threads around here. You might want to stop talking, stop asking the same redundant questions and actually start applying some of the information that's been shared. In doing so you will stop presenting yourself as a fickle minded novice and folks may begin to see that you are serious and you have found some sense of focus and thus, are applying yourself towards actually learning and more importantly, being able to GIVE BACK to the community.

I really hope you chew of these thoughts; even going back and re-reading what everyone keeps telling you.

Thanks Craig. I agree, I think I was in the wrong performance genre for a while. I'll look into this stuff, and come back later.

same redundant questions

speaking of redundant.


Sorry, just had to point it out.

Thanks though.