talkmagic.co.uk

I totally agree with our learned friend, Mr. Fry.

Having spent years loitering around comedy clubs and the suchlike, it's clear to me that swearing is simply a tool that one can choose to use when apppropriate. As others have mentioned on the thread, acts such as George Carlin and others such as Bill Hicks, Denis Leary etc have built acts (and entire careers!) around swearing.

Now, the question is - is it appropriate to swear during a magic act. And, of course, the only possible answer here is "it depends". It depends on the venue, the audience and, most importantly, your act. If your act is aimed towards families on holiday/end of the pier/summer season, etc then clearly it would not be appropriate. However, as a comedy magician, I find swearing to be a very useful tool - perhaps not during the 'magic' portion of my act but certainly during the comedic monologues that I use.

To see posts stating that "Only low class people would dream of doing such a thing" I think simply serves only to unfairly pigeonhole performers. Magic IS an artform but art comes in many, many different guises - I would put it to you that by performing in 'non-traditional' venues (such as dingy dive clubs - Lord knows I've been in more than a few!) we are actually spreading the artform to those who may not otherwise have been exposed to it. And also, while we're here - I'm not sure it does to be too precious about any type of artform. Just look at the Punk Rock movement - whether you cared for the music is not the point. It gave the music business the biggest kick up the backside in history and the fallout is still being felt today. I'm not sure it would have been in anyone's best interest to have spent the last 30+ years listening to nothing but Emerson, Lake and Palmer and bloated prog rock.

Penn & Teller do a similar thing in magic. Yes, they expose some secrets but when they do, the secrets are usually more interesting than the trick itself - how often can we really say that?? And I bet they've convinced more than a few youngsters (who like their 'edgy' swearing stylings) to pick up a few tricks to try for themselves. For me, it's all about spreading the artform - I love it when people tell me "I don't really like magic" and then, a few minutes later, they're almost begging to tell them how I could have possibily known the name of the actor they were merely thinking of.

To close, I should say that one person convinced me to buy my first trick and, therefore, changed the course of my life completely. He was working in International Magic in London and his name was Jerry Sadowitz. The funniest, filthiest performer I have ever seen.

And one heck of a magician to boot.

cheers,


Sean

aporia wrote:Electric chairs? Do you know of any resources I can look up for this? The only one I found after a quick web trawl was a pamphlet "zapped" by Ricki Dunn from Magic Depot but I have no guarantee of the quality of the publication. Is the method in a proper book?

I couldn't see any gaffs (obviously the whole point) but nor could I see any signal prompt a post-hypnotic reaction (other than some touching afterwards). I presume that the method is perfectly safe (or the spec is a stooge which is very possible) as he didn't ask about health conditions.

it is THE book on the subject

I can indeed endorse the Electric Chair book. It is the best source on the subject. Ricky Dunn also gives a little more information in his pickpocketing book. Incidentally I can also recommend the pickpocket book even if you never pick a pocket in your life. It gives great advice on stagecraft, how to handle stooges and much, much more.

It is interesting that even though Paul Daniels and Ricky Dunn were quite aggressive performers in their own way and even a trifle suggestive at times (which I also don't approve of) they never once in their long careers uttered a single swear word on stage.

And that is the way it should be. The more lower class "performers" among you please note.

Craig Browning wrote:Well, as an old sailor & carney I can tell you point blank that the use of "blue" language on stage is simply WRONG and gets you nowhere fast! If reveals general disrespect for your audience (that is, if you're not catering to bottom feeders) and it likewise reveals the extent of one's own IQ... so to speak.

Derren Brown swears quite a lot on stage.

Does that mean he has a low IQ?

Penn and Teller? Stupid are they?

Or even Derek and Clive for that matter.

i would argue that the reason hicks and carlin were funny, wasnt that they sweared, it was just that they had interesting, true and funny things to say...

angry preachers...

same as pryor, connolly and a handful of others...

i think with swearing, its comical punctuation and emphasis...

did you know in the film Gone with the Wind, they had to change the emphasis from "damn" to "give" as it was considered too shocking to say...

anyway - swearing isnt needed in magic, however, if used correctly and said well - it can difuse a darker moment, cause misdirection and help bond with the people you are with...man of the people and all that jazz...

some though, it just wouldnt suit, i agree on that...

The performers young Damian refers to may not be unintelligent but they ae performing in an unintelligent manner. Not to say low class. People in the audience of a certain breeding would feel disgusted by such inferior standards.

It is true that profanity may appeal to certain segments of society that would not be welcome in the best homes but a superior performer should not pander to these elements. He can entertain them but he should not lower himself to their level. And lower the art of magic along with it.

Magic has a bad enough reputation among the public as it is. And of course this is encouraged by the multitude of awful magicians (actually the vast majority of the magic community). However there is no earthly reason to make the situation even worse by base profanity from lower class "perfeshanals"

If you don't know what a "perfeshanal" is then I suggest reading Maskelyne's Our Magic to find out.

In my capacity as a psychic reverend I have been in touch with Maskelyne in the spirit world and he informs me that he is turning in his grave to see the way magic has developed since he was active.

ROFL!

Maybe if Maskelyne is turning in his grave, he's simply craning his neck to get a better view of where magic has moved to? After all he wasn't averse to giving away a few secrets himself in his time, was he?

I shall take your complaint to Nevil himself and see what he has to say. However I do believe that you are mixing him up with David Devant who indeed kicked up a lot of fuss in his day by revealing secrets in a newspaper. In fact he got kicked out of the Magic Circle for it despite the fact that he was one of the founders of this awful organisation full of the most incompetent magicians I have ever seen in my life. Apart from the IBM Ring in Dublin of course which of course would have to represent the most awful magicians on God's green earth. Utterly horrendous "performers" as I recall.

However one thing Devant didn't do on stage was swear. A far worse sin in my view that exposing a few tricks in the newspaper.

Maskelyne famously wrote 'Sharps & Flats' that revealed the various ways to cheat at gambling games.... a far more dangerous pastime than revealing a few tricks!

And I'd wager once the gamblers got on his case, the language was coarser than anything we've discussed so far on this thread!!

Maskelyne was a very upright individual who wouldn't approve of cheating. I can quite see him exposing it. He was always suing people for something or other. You would think he was an American.

I do like Stephen Fry.

Ironic that in a piece about swearing he only swore once. It was quite funny. The other swear words were just "c**k" which is another name for a chicken.

We don't swear much on this forum, do we?

To my mind the great stand ups mentioned so far are so great BECAUSE they push us past our comfort zone, the greatest always feel as if they are completely free of restraint and limitation, they will use every tool in their arsenal, swearing included to make their point and make us laugh and it is liberating to watch.

No limitations should be placed on the stand up performer, the audience is just as free to like or dislike the performer but if he is not being himself at full force then the audience are not seeing correctly what they have to judge.

Mr Lewis should understand this, he may not swear but can anyone remember a post of his not presented in his inimitable style, wordy, faux patronising, stratospherically arrogant and condescending, a carefully constructed caracature, designed to make these characteristics more palatable so people don't throw rocks at him? and more importantly would we want to read such a post? how much more dull a place would TM be if he were to try to make us like him

As for swearing appealing to the low class, uneducated bottom feeders alone I can only say that you are talking UTTER nonsense, Having been well educated but at various times in my life living each decade at the poorest and near richest of levels I would point out that your standard, working class, "good christian values" man may swear like a trooper in the pub but is far more likely to tut at swearing on tv and loving beat his kid to a pulp for uttering profanity than the Oxford inbred classes who delight in trying to shock more and more with every passing sentence in order to guffaw at themselves with delight.

As for swearing in magic, kid show audiences aside, who gives a c*ap ( Not the best)?. My own stage act makes use of only two references to the word bulls*it, but if any other moment could be improved one degree by a well placed £%*@ it would be in there in a second. Derren Brown is, on stage, an absolute master showman in every respect, thoroughly deserving of all his praise and jealousy and he truly knows just where those, actually quite few but memorable utterances should go for maximum comic effect. They also serve the exact purpose they are designed for, puncturing his superiority every once in a while so he doesn't come across as a completely unlikeable, smug git, but instead as a thoroughly normal chap with some entertaining skills.

Somebody mentioned magic already having a bed reputation, this is true but for almost the opposite reason, I love magic but why does it INSIST on being the only artform that apparently feels no need to move with the times? if a time traveller were to try to ascertain the year using only magic as a guide he would I'm quite sure wonder how many years were left until the second world war. Wearing evening wear, rather than the "current formal style of the era" which is what evening wear was back then, using jokes older than Moses, being tackier than Blackpool in our style, with playing card ties, bow ties, top hats, brightly colored wooden boxes. Or perhaps he might watch some stage magic and assume we were in the 1980's, big hair, bad makeup and suits that Julian Clary wouldn't wear? These things and one other are far more responsible for magic's current reputation as an anachronistic joke than any four letter word will ever be.

What's the other thing at fault? Getting back to the original post, Mr Daniels is a performer whose skills I respect, and who in recent years has apparently mellowed considerably was on tv for 16 years. Before him it was an honour for a spectator to be chosen by a famous magician, they would be treated with respect and given a truly wonderful, memorable experience to treasure. Mr Daniels virtually singlehandedly created the antagonistic, challenging, mocking approach to spectator management that today means the close up worker has to virtually beg to get the wary spectator to trust him long enough to perform. Given a choice between this and Jerry Sadowitz stunning me with his magic while calling mother Teresa a &*@% I know which was more damaging and which i would rather see.

CutToTheAce wrote:To my mind the great stand ups mentioned so far are so great BECAUSE they push us past our comfort zone, the greatest always feel as if they are completely free of restraint and limitation, they will use every tool in their arsenal, swearing included to make their point and make us laugh and it is liberating to watch.

Freud got a lot wrong, but his ideas about comedy still form a very good working model of how comedy works. He said it was the subconscious release of pent up frustration, sometimes against our conscious will at things we know we shouldn't laugh at. Comedians arguably exploit that mechanism to make you laugh by taking you over the edge. They enable us to reconcile what we really are with who we think we should be.

Take Jimmy Carr as an example. Whatever you think of him, there's no denying he's a superb teller of jokes. Reading his book, The Naked Jape, it's clear he understands that if you can get people to laugh at things they know they shouldn't, it's cathartic. He gives the audience permission to let it out. He's not simply confirming vulgar racist or sexist opinions like Andrew Dice Clay, but challenging us to see that we're not morally superior to others.

Too much coffee.

Hopi clowns, if I understand it correctly, are effectively formally charged with performing this service to the tribe. Presumably in between suing ear candle manufacturers.

Yes, the Stephen Fry clip was bang on in my opinion.

Personally, I feel that the subject of swearing depends entirely on what fits the performer, what fits the audience, and what fits the context of the show.

I've heard one very successful magician argue that acts that swear are less likely to get booked by big venues. And that's his only reason for advising people to keep it clean.

I see a lot of sense in that, but again feel that it all comes down to the persona you want to project and the type of gig you're doing.

I'm irreverent in almost all aspects of my work. And that irreverence manifests itself in different ways, depending on who I'm performing for. Regardless of the situation, though, it's important for me not to be seen as a magician showing off. I can't get away with an air of superiority, and giving that superiority to the audience works well to get them on my side, provided it's done right.

If it's a family audience, or if I've been booked by a charity or agency, I'll naturally and instinctively keep a civil tongue in my head.

In a comedy club setting, however, I'm very relaxed in my attitude. The goal for most stand-up comics is to appear spontaneous - to give the impression of being someone who has just got up from the audience on a whim and is being brilliant. It's about having the audience identify with the performer. And I find it a fascinating environment to work as a mentalist or mental magician. A lot of what comes out of my mouth on a comedy stage is unscripted banter and interplay with spectators. I don't make a point of using rude words, but if one or two make an appearance during the performance, so be it. It all helps to ensure I'm not 'elevating myself to performer status'.

I definitely wouldn't lay down any draconian rules on this.

However, if you come away from a show commenting more on the performer's pottymouth than any other part of the act, then that's probably a sign that the they shouldn't have been swearing (or that the act was scheitt).

Pete