talkmagic.co.uk

I think gillows sums it up very well. That's the best final answer you'll get.

As a cartoonist, sending out cartoons and cartoon ideas to magazines and newspapers, people often ask if 'ideas get stolen'. Not very often frankly, and nothing to deter me (and other cartoonists) sending stuff; it's the main way of selling it.

We're all influenced by what we see and read, of course, and sometimes seeing how something works can spark off a new concept loosely based on the same idea. That's life - it's also progress.

I am not trying to stop rip-offs, that is virtually impossible. What I meant by "keep secrets secret" is to stop laymen and the common public finding out about it.

For example, I personally believe all copies of 13 Steps should have sold for £50; to keep curious laymen away - you may disagree with me, but you see my point. Paralies is a great book, but I am positive it did not cost anything like $80 per book to print; but I think it is a fair price to pay, because the material is very good and it helps protect the secrets for laymen.


Let us not worry about rip-offs for now, China will see to that; let us discuss keeping secrets from those who are happier not knowing.


Tom
xx

The abolute best, sure-fire way of keping your work secret is NOT TO PUBLISH AT ALL!

Eshly - I see what you mean.

When things like scan-proof printing were mentioned I got the impression it was about stopping ripoffs.

As for laymen, hmm. I'm not all that sure that non-magicians finding things out is all that big an issue. I should probably explain what I mean there though.

I performed some card tricks for my girlfriend's family over Christmas and when another beginner magician who was there (I pointed him towards Royal Road) asked me something. Instantly someone asked us not to talk about it in front of them, another 3 or 4 agreed as none of them wanted to know. I wasn't going to anyway, but everyone agreed that it was better to keep the "magic" and wonder than to know how it was done. I think that's actually true for most people.

A few times the topic of the masked magician has come up in conversations I've had (even before I started practicing with cards and the likes) - and I think maybe 80% or more of people who actually like magic didn't like that show. One would turn it off, and if someone in the room insisted on watching it, she'd leave.

Then there's the few enquiring types who want to know just so they know... while for the average person the thrill in magic comes from the performance and the apparent impossibility of what they have seen happen, for others the thrill comes in how it's done, and not knowing just frustrates them.

The only ones I see as a problem are those who like to "bust" magicians. Tossers, as they are known when they do so in front of an audience, ruining it for everyone else.
Truth be told, I'm unconvinced that type would spend any money to find out how a trick works. More likely they trawl how-to videos on youtube and download scans from torrent sites... and that's back to the copy-protection issue again.

I don't suppose this post really adds to the sum of human knowledge, but it goes some way to explaining what I meant when I said I don't see it as a big issue.


Now, out of all that, is there a way of stopping busters getting hold of it? Hmm. Maybe with a super high price tag. Maybe by avoiding exposers by only selling to people you know personally. Hard to say really.

But then, I'm just a beginner at all this magic lark anyway! Haha.

There are two things I REALLY fear in life; just two.

The first is the death of a girl I know.
The second is "tossers" yelling out methods in the middle of a performance, particularly a stage show :S



THIS is why I try and protect my secrets; in my show I have a serial number routine that uses add-a-number; but I also incorperate a swami, and upto four other extra spectators who add in more numbers out loud AFTER the paper numbers have been added up, just to make it more complicated.


Tom
xx

Eshly wrote:The second is "tossers" yelling out methods in the middle of a performance, particularly a stage show :S

I promise you, it will happen. Don't worry about it too much, because frankly they're tossers. But it will happen

I have a vague memory of seeing a magician perform when I was a young kid where another kid (Tosser Jr.) kept pointing things out, shouting things out and generally being, well, a tosser. Even when he was wrong it kinda ruined things.

I had one such tosser when I was doing some bar magic years ago. It was plenty annoying, but I lucked out and had something that was ditched to the floor bounce completely out of sight. I invited him around to check and when he couldn't find it he left red-faced and quiet. That was sheer blind luck though.

I I'm not sure there's anything you can do about it if using more common "moves" or techniques, other than handling it right when they do shout out. With your own secrets... hmm... it strikes me that you'll either have good success selling them, or a far smaller market, but a vetted and trusted one that will keep the secret from getting to the tossers.

Maybe pricing things up a bit, but then that starts to look like taking the mickey a bit unless you've got some really high-value stuff in the book.

My magic library can be counted on one hand though, so I'm probably not the best to comment on that side of things.

Eshly wrote:I am not trying to stop rip-offs, that is virtually impossible. What I meant by "keep secrets secret" is to stop laymen and the common public finding out about it.

For example, I personally believe all copies of 13 Steps should have sold for £50; to keep curious laymen away - you may disagree with me, but you see my point. Paralies is a great book, but I am positive it did not cost anything like $80 per book to print; but I think it is a fair price to pay, because the material is very good and it helps protect the secrets for laymen.


Let us not worry about rip-offs for now, China will see to that; let us discuss keeping secrets from those who are happier not knowing.


Tom
xx

If it is laymen you are worried about then don't bother. They only care while you are performing.

You can give 13 steps to mentalism away and a layperson is still not going to read it. They are not even going to know it exists. But lets say they do. One of two things are going to happen. They will get interested in the art and be a layperson no more. Or they will forget about it in no time.

The average person out there really doesn't care.

The only way to keep a secret is not to tell anybody.

spooneythegoon wrote:

.robb. wrote:I don't have any answers for you but I do like what Jon Thompson put on the "cover" of Poker Faced:

"If you did not pay for this PDF, you are a criminal of the worst kind; a foul parasite on creativity. You took my work just because you wanted it. I wish you nothing less than a life filled with pain and failure, and ending early with a lingering, agonizing death."

Unfortunately, he also wishes this to anyone who reads the preveiw before buying, apparently!

Oh dear me no. I merely own your soul in perpetuity if you read the preview

bmat wrote:The average person out there really doesn't care.

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. If they cared, they'd be magicians, not laymen.

Everybody in the western world knows about magic tricks and has probably been taught a few simple tricks as a child. Anyone who's spent a lifetime knowing the option of "magic as a hobby" is available, and who hasn't taken it up, isn't interested. They're no more likely to go hunting up your book than I am to search for the latest tome on arc welding.

Robbie wrote:They're no more likely to go hunting up your book than I am to search for the latest tome on arc welding.

And now you have no need to (link here). Does that count as exposure?

Eshly wrote:THIS is why I try and protect my secrets; in my show I have a serial number routine that uses add-a-number; but I also incorperate a swami, and upto four other extra spectators who add in more numbers out loud AFTER the paper numbers have been added up, just to make it more complicated.


Tom
xx

but you'll publish them quite openly on a forum!

IAIN wrote:

Eshly wrote:THIS is why I try and protect my secrets; in my show I have a serial number routine that uses add-a-number; but I also incorperate a swami, and upto four other extra spectators who add in more numbers out loud AFTER the paper numbers have been added up, just to make it more complicated.


Tom
xx

but you'll publish them quite openly on a forum!

hehe, fair point. I should stop that :p

Tom
xx

Ted wrote:

Robbie wrote:They're no more likely to go hunting up your book than I am to search for the latest tome on arc welding.

And now you have no need to (link here). Does that count as exposure?

Nah, not even close.

It's only exposure if someone does it without charging money for the instructions.

BigShot wrote:

Ted wrote:

Robbie wrote:They're no more likely to go hunting up your book than I am to search for the latest tome on arc welding.

And now you have no need to (link here). Does that count as exposure?

Nah, not even close.

It's only exposure if someone does it without charging money for the instructions.

Oh, you mean like this?