talkmagic.co.uk

So....... how much is a giro/remitance slip worth?

Gary,

As I've said to you in the PM, legally you may be right. I'm not making a _claim_, I'm stating an opinion. My opinion is that you are trying to get out of a debt using a legal loophole. My opinion is that you appear to be proud of your actions. My opinion of you could not be lower.

Bask in your glory, Gary.

Ian

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, but the fact remains I have settled the account using a lawful specie of currency. I haven't ducked out of paying, I have lawfully paid.

So, I received a letter from the credit bandits complaints department in which they again state they can't accept the remittance as payment. So, I've sent the CEO another Notice of Dishonour and Opportunity to Cure. Here is the sanitised version.

Thieving Git
Thieving Git's Office
2 Git Square
Regents Place
London


26 February 2010

NOTICE OF DISHONOUR AND OPPORTUNITY TO CURE

Dear Thieving Git,

Re: Thieving Gits Credit Card XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

With reference to the financial instrument, accepted for value and returned for settlement and prepayment against future transactions, that was enclosed with the Notice of Acceptance for Value dated 9 February 2010, the Notice of Dishonour and Opportunity to Cure dated 19 February 2010 and the Notice of Dishonour dated 23 February 2010, all delivered to Thieving Gits Cards by recorded mail.

I hereby give notice that Thieving Gits has dishonoured the financial instrument, accepted for value and returned for settlement and prepayment against future transactions and each and every one of the said Notices by failing to respond appropriately within a reasonable timeframe.

Therefore, please send me written confirmation that payment has been received and accepted, as well as an appropriately adjusted statement for the above account, within three working days of your receipt of this notice.

Without malice or mischief, in sincerity and honour,

By: GARY of the family dickson (Agent and Administrator)

ALL RIGHTS RESERVED – WITHOUT PREJUDICE – NON ASSUMPSIT

Gary Dickson wrote:

Klangster1971 wrote:

IanKendall wrote:For example - did you write 'IOU 5 grand' on the tear off pay slip?
Ian

This is the question I am also wondering about... a remittance slip may well be a lawful financial instrument but I'm still at a loss as to where the money you were offering to pay them with was coming from.

Where does any money come from? It is created out of thin air!

My accountant would like to have a word with you.
You cannot create money from nowhere legally.

I also sent a Notice to the woman from the complaints department. Sanitised version below:

Thieving Git's Lackey
PO Box XXXX
Milton Keynes


26 February 2010
Your Ref: RD/xxxxxx


NOTICE SEEKING CLARIFICATION

Dear Lackey,

Re: Thieving Gits Credit Card - XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Thank you for your letters dated 12 February 2010 and 25 February 2010.

In your letters you make reference to my letters to your CEO dated 9 February 2010 and 19 February 2010. I would like to remind you that I did not send your CEO letters but Notices, which are a different specie of document, specifically a Notice of Acceptance for Value and a Notice of Dishonour and Opportunity to Cure. In all future correspondence with me please refer to these Notices by their correct names.

In your letters you stated that you were not able to accept the financial instrument your company sent me, accepted for value and returned for settlement, and prepayment against future transactions.

You helpfully provided the contact details of the Financial Ombudsman Service. I rang them asking them to confirm or deny that I was lawfully able to use the financial instrument your company sent me to credit/offset the balance of the above account. They were not able to furnish me with an answer, however they did provide the contact details of the Financial Services Authority.

A very helpful lady, Laurie Clark, after conferring with her superior confirmed that the financial instrument your company sent me is a lawful specie of money which can be used to credit/offset the balance of the above account, pursuant to the English Bills of Exchange Act 1882. She also confirmed that in not accepting said financial instrument you have dishonoured the payment. Finally, she asked if I wished to lodge a complaint against your company, an action I am considering.

Therefore, I request that you provide me with written proof, upon your full commercial liability and penalty of perjury, quoting the relevant statutes and acts, that I am not lawfully able to discharge the balance of the above account using the said financial instrument.

If no written response from you is received by mail within three days of your receipt of this Notice, it will be assumed that I am lawfully able to discharge the outstanding balance on the above account, that Thieving Git Cards has dishonoured a legal tender of payment and that such a dishonour of a legal tender of payment discharges the outstanding balance of the above account.

Without malice or mischief, in sincerity and honour

By Gary of the family dickson (Agent & Administrator

From a Buddhist point of view, what's the karmic fallout of this bollox?

May you be reincarnated as a leech. It would be so fitting.

I shall ask again....

how much were you suggesting the remittance slip was worth? How much of the debt were you suggesting they wipe off as a result of receiving this legal financial instrument?

I really don't wish to be obtuse but would really like to understand more about how much worth you placed on the remittance slip.

cheers,


Sean

Lawrence wrote:

Gary Dickson wrote:

Klangster1971 wrote:

IanKendall wrote:For example - did you write 'IOU 5 grand' on the tear off pay slip?
Ian

This is the question I am also wondering about... a remittance slip may well be a lawful financial instrument but I'm still at a loss as to where the money you were offering to pay them with was coming from.

Where does any money come from? It is created out of thin air!

My accountant would like to have a word with you.
You cannot create money from nowhere legally.

I may be wrong here, but my understanding is that that is exactly what happens. It's called the fractional reserve system. Now, I don't fully understand it, but I'll try my best to explain it.

Let's say, hypothetically, we're at the start of the economy and there is no money in circulation. Let us also say, hypothetically, that we are the central bank (in the UK the Bank of England). The government comes to us and borrows a million pounds. This is the principal.

So, now, there is a million pounds in circulation, in this hypothetical economy. Principal plus interest (let's say 20%) is what the government has to pay us back. So that's £1,200,000. Where's that interest going to come from? In order to repay that the government has to borrow more money from the central bank. Now, in order to repay the debt the government taxes us, but the taxes we pay go towards the interest of the debt.

Now, when the million pounds gets down to the banks that we use (Lloyds, Abbey, etc) they only have to keep 10% of those funds in reserve. The rest can be reissued as fiat currency which isn't backed by anything until you work for it or borrow it.

So what happens is there is increasing amount of debt as the fiat currency is reissued and reissued. At some point, the whole thing is going to collapse. What's even worse is that our children and out children's children are all going to be liable for this debt which is only going to increase.

Because our money is not backed by gold (and hasn't been since 1933) all the money that we are using to attempt to pay debt has been more debt, which obviously can't work.

The only thing that allows this system to work in the way it does is the fact that we just accept it. Because of the way the system works, there is more theoretical money (fiat currency) that there are goods or services to back it.

Which brings us onto inflation. Most of us think of inflation as rising prices in the shops, but this is a by product for what is really going on. Let's assume, in our hypothetical economy, we've spent the million and we need some more money so the central bank creates another million pounds and puts that into circulation, so we now have two million pounds in circulation. This devalues the currency which makes it more expensive for us to buy goods from abroad, hence rising prices. So inflation is not rising prices, but the creation of more money out of nothing. The effects of this can be seen in WW2 Germany, and currently in Zimbabwe which is experiencing hyperinflation.

I'm not an economist and may well have got my facts wrong, but that is the situation as I understand it. If anyone can confirm or deny this that would be great.

Klangster1971 wrote:I shall ask again....

how much were you suggesting the remittance slip was worth? How much of the debt were you suggesting they wipe off as a result of receiving this legal financial instrument?

I really don't wish to be obtuse but would really like to understand more about how much worth you placed on the remittance slip.

cheers,


Sean

Are you asking me for personal financial information? Does the amount matter? I know of people who have used this process for £45 and others for thousands.

Thinking about it, there's no reason why I should not tell you. The value I gave the remittance was for £1741.74.

IanKendall wrote:From a Buddhist point of view, what's the karmic fallout of this bollox?

May you be reincarnated as a leech. It would be so fitting.

Ian, please stop insulting me. You strike me as an intelligent man with a strong sense of morals. Such behaviour demeans you.

You're question is a valid one, and it is something I have given thought to. One of the Buddhist ethical principles I try to live by is to not take the not given (which in Christianity is the same as Thou shalt not steal).

As the remittance is a lawful specie of money I don't see how I've broken that precept. I have discharged the account using a form of currency recognised by the government.

Incidentally, Buddhist ethics is one of intention. You could have two carrying out the same action one of whom could be behaving unethically and the other ethically. What determines whether the action is ethical or unethical is the mental state that informs it, not the action itself.

But really, that's none of your concern. If I have behaved unethically, and I don't think I have, then I will suffer the consequences for that.

I'm not seeing it at all.
From an double entry audit point of view can you explain where the opposing side of this magically appearing money is?
If you can't then this is illegal.

Cheers

Lawrence wrote:I'm not seeing it at all.
From an double entry audit point of view can you explain where the opposing side of this magically appearing money is?
If you can't then this is illegal.

Cheers

As I've said, I'm not an economist, neither am I an accountant. I don't understand your question. Could you rephrase it?

Gary Dickson wrote:

Klangster1971 wrote: The value I gave the remittance was for £1741.74.

Many thanks for that, Gary... and, correct me if I'm wrong, but that was just a figure that you assigned to the slip, yes? Just by writing it on the form. A bit like writing a cheque, but without any funds actually leaving your bank account?

Am I right on the process side of things?

Klangster1971 wrote:

Gary Dickson wrote:

Klangster1971 wrote: The value I gave the remittance was for £1741.74.

Many thanks for that, Gary... and, correct me if I'm wrong, but that was just a figure that you assigned to the slip, yes? Just by writing it on the form. A bit like writing a cheque, but without any funds actually leaving your bank account?

Am I right on the process side of things?

Yes. Now what I did was to instruct the credit bandit to deposit the remittance with HM Treasury and to draw the funds from the Annuity that is created when your birth is registered, hence the NI number. It's actually in the other thread, but if you look at the original Notice of Acceptance for Value you'll see it there.