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IAIN wrote:then don't take the time off and celebrate christmas?

But they're bank holidays, and I like giving and receiving presents and eating well. Would you rather I call it a winterval?

Robbie wrote:

IAIN wrote:if you believe that no god exists, therefore, surely - neither do the holidays.

Ah, but the holidays DO exist in our western culture. There's no getting around that. Even an avowed atheist has to admit that they exist as days marked by the general culture as different from the rest of the year.

If you don't acknowledge Christmas as a holy day, and don't even use it as an excuse to celebrate the existence of friends and family or the cycle of the seasons, you'll still have to take note of its existence in some way because it impinges into all areas of everyday life.

ah but again Robbie, I'm not saying they don't exist - they do for those that are of that religion...but they shouldn't to anyone else...we all live in our own world, we define it, filter it..alter and adapt everything we see through our own little world filter...I'm suggesting that atheists should be more consistent, and not take time off over the religious festivials...if you want to celebrate your friends and others - atheists do not need a specified time to do so...

just ring them up and tell them that you love 'em...arrange a shindig...

i don't think you HAVE to take notice of it, sure you are cognitively aware of something happening, but should you join in and take part if you do not agree or support them in their beliefs?

Mr_Grue wrote:

IAIN wrote:then don't take the time off and celebrate christmas?

But they're bank holidays, and I like giving and receiving presents and eating well. Would you rather I call it a winterval?

sure, you can't make an office open on christmas day, I'm not being extremist, just debate a little on this subject...but taking a week or two off over the christmas period...i feel as atheists, maybe that could be seen as hypocritical...

and you can call it whatever you want, within the subscribed framework of your own personal belief system...

What I don't get though is that it is ok for a pagan festival to turn christian but not for a christian one to change secular....which it no doubt has already

Good will to all men is most definitely not exclusive to the religious.

in the same way that an atheist can agree with the golden rule without having to believe in the miracles or divinity of the speaker (although he nicked it off Confucius)

imagine if there was an atheist day, and suddenly you had christians and catholics turning up...you'd be outraged at the irony!

then someone jewish would kill Richard Dawkins...

IAIN wrote:and you can call it whatever you want, within the subscribed framework of your own personal belief system...

So if each individual can give the term Christmas (and it seems they are) his or her own meaning then whats the complaint?

please do not take Mr. Grue's and my comments out of context young man, the full response from me explained it...

sure, you can't make an office open on christmas day, I'm not being extremist, just debate a little on this subject...but taking a week or two off over the christmas period...i feel as atheists, maybe that could be seen as hypocritical...

and you can call it whatever you want, within the subscribed framework of your own personal belief system...

so if you are atheist, as i keep saying, you shouldn't recognise nor take the time off work during christ's mass...

next up...the probability of aliens...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/s ... 107207.ece

IAIN wrote:imagine if there was an atheist day, and suddenly you had christians and catholics turning up...you'd be outraged at the irony!

It would be so cool if Christians turned up for Atheist day. I can think of nothing nicer than people putting aside their different opinions for a day and just enjoying being with other people.

Of course, it could all kick off into a massive fight...

The point I was trying to make earlier was that I don't think I should have to work over the Christmas period just because someone else has marked it out as their special time of year and I hold different beliefs to them. If everyone I know takes time off at Christmas, for whatever reasons they choose, really I should be allowed to do the same so I can be with them. I have worked over the christmas period and it's not a huge amount of fun. Now that could be because everyone turns into @rseh@les during that time when you work in a shop but it could also be because everyone else is enjoying themselves and, even though I am a cold-hearted atheist who kills babies and hates all the fun in the world, I would like to be having fun with them too.

Also, if I don't take time off at christmas, will I be allocated extra annual leave time to make up for it? If so, could I then choose to take that additional annual leave over the last few weeks of December as all my family and friends have taken that time off?

A J Irving wrote:

IAIN wrote:imagine if there was an atheist day, and suddenly you had christians and catholics turning up...you'd be outraged at the irony!

It would be so cool if Christians turned up for Atheist day. I can think of nothing nicer than people putting aside their different opinions for a day and just enjoying being with other people.

Of course, it could all kick off into a massive fight...

The point I was trying to make earlier was that I don't think I should have to work over the Christmas period just because someone else has marked it out as their special time of year and I hold different beliefs to them. If everyone I know takes time off at Christmas, for whatever reasons they choose, really I should be allowed to do the same so I can be with them. I have worked over the christmas period and it's not a huge amount of fun. Now that could be because everyone turns into @rseh@les during that time when you work in a shop but it could also be because everyone else is enjoying themselves and, even though I am a cold-hearted atheist who kills babies and hates all the fun in the world, I would like to be having fun with them too.

Also, if I don't take time off at christmas, will I be allocated extra annual leave time to make up for it? If so, could I then choose to take that additional annual leave over the last few weeks of December as all my family and friends have taken that time off?

no.

IAIN wrote:

A J Irving wrote:

IAIN wrote:imagine if there was an atheist day, and suddenly you had christians and catholics turning up...you'd be outraged at the irony!

It would be so cool if Christians turned up for Atheist day. I can think of nothing nicer than people putting aside their different opinions for a day and just enjoying being with other people.

Of course, it could all kick off into a massive fight...

The point I was trying to make earlier was that I don't think I should have to work over the Christmas period just because someone else has marked it out as their special time of year and I hold different beliefs to them. If everyone I know takes time off at Christmas, for whatever reasons they choose, really I should be allowed to do the same so I can be with them. I have worked over the christmas period and it's not a huge amount of fun. Now that could be because everyone turns into @rseh@les during that time when you work in a shop but it could also be because everyone else is enjoying themselves and, even though I am a cold-hearted atheist who kills babies and hates all the fun in the world, I would like to be having fun with them too.

Also, if I don't take time off at christmas, will I be allocated extra annual leave time to make up for it? If so, could I then choose to take that additional annual leave over the last few weeks of December as all my family and friends have taken that time off?

no.

Fair enough, I can't really argue with that.

seriously though...imagine in your mind right now god never existed - hard to do i know, however lets say for you - god and everything that comes along with it...gone...not existing in any way shape or form...those days in winter are just more days to lumber through slowly until you die...

those days are no more nor any less important than any other day in your life...that is what i think atheists should view what some people on this earth call 'christmas'.

and just because some people are celebrating something, doesnt mean you have to - and unless you have the same belief as them, then you shouldnt really be celebrating something you dissaprove of surely? that to me is illogical...

"hey, what day is this?"

"its holy sausage-roll day! its when a sausage roll was kissed by an albino pug on a wet wednesday and ever since then, we celebrate that moment by dressing up as pugs and kissing sausage rolls in homage..."

"oh...well, i don't believe it ever happened...but, it kinda looks like fun, can i join in anyway?"

"no...why would you wanna?"

"BUT I LIKE SAUSAGE ROLLS! WAAAAAAAAAAH!"

we can all crusade about what we find right and moral in this world - we can say what we believe in, but the true measure of that belief is to be consistent and brutally honest with ourselves too...so if it means giving up the fun stuff to remain true to ourselves...then so be it...

greedoniz wrote:in the same way that an atheist can agree with the golden rule without having to believe in the miracles or divinity of the speaker (although he nicked it off Confucius)

I'm not sure if the golden rule is my absolute favourite, but it's definitely in my top 1.61803...

We seem to be going round in circles, c/o a conflation of what it means to "celebrate Christmas". As I've already said, atheists do not celebrate the birth of Christ. The reason the Christmas celebration is there is the same reason the Saturnalia was there and the same reason the Pagan celebration was there. There is something in living through cold dark times that makes us cry out for a bit of a party; why should atheists be any different?

I would argue the opposite of that though. To me, religion really isn't as important as spending time with my family. I'd rather be a hypocrite who enjoys himself rather than a stubborn fool who is willing to give up on his happiness for the sake of something he doesn't believe in anyway.

Life is for living. It's more ridiculous for an atheist to deprive himself of some fun because it might be religious than for a religious person to deny themselves some fun because they think their god demands it. At least the religious person believes that they might receive some reward after they die for it. The atheist would just be a stubborn *rse.

I guess what I'm saying is: it's only a (non-)religious belief, it's not important.

I just like getting together with the extended family of in-laws and out-laws for a big feast, presents and silly board games on Christmas Day. And drink. Lots of drink. Nowt wrong with that. Our family is atheist and God's never mentioned. We don't even watch the Queen!