talkmagic.co.uk

It's been very interesting hearing what other people think about this subject, and it seems that the gimmicked decks have got alot of support. If I'm honest I actually thought it would be the other way round. I think that I agree with what jing has just mentioned:

I think that if the situation allows you to use a trick deck, and that's the effect you want to create do it. I wouldn't carry more than one deck of cards doing a walk around gig, but if I was at home, and a friend said show us something, then I might grab a trick deck.

I think this probably sums up how I would think of myself using a trick deck, although I would explore every option I had before finally deciding to use one.

It does seem that people don't have the same view as I had when I posted this that the trick deck is just a short cut. My thought was that we should be good enough to not need these decks and that they are sort of breeding a lazy type of magician. This is not an insult, but it just makes me think that I'm sure there are a fair number of people out there who wouldn't ever try to explore other methods of trying to do an effect because they feel it's easier not to. I think this might lead down a bad road because in the end, you might end up sticking with the trick deck to get your desired outcome, but if you don't explore you may miss something that could make your trick great.

In my view I would use a gimmicked deck only if I found that to be the best method after exploring many others. I think back a few post to randy, where he says that with the gimmick you don't need to be worries about flashing a slight. This is a fair argument, In my oppinion, if we are out performing we should have worked and practiced to the point where your slights getting spotted aren't an issue anymore.

Again, just my little bit of input.

I almost think that to be able to use a trick deck to it's full potential you should first be proficient with an ordinary deck. In other words if you are good enough to use a regular deck with all it's required handling then you are probably qualified to use a trick deck.

Think about it.

And trick decks do not necessarily mean you don't have to use sleight of hand.

mark lewis also wrote:I almost think that to be able to use a trick deck to it's full potential you should first be proficient with an ordinary deck.

You couldn't be more right.

Don't be silly old chap. I am MARK LEWIS and am never wrong. However if you are a hot shot move-monkey I congratulate you. Now all you have to do is present it properly.

Eshly wrote:There is a trick which Derren Brown performs on Trick of the Mind series 2.

In it, two spectators randomly shuffle cards beneath a table, and then both turn over one random card (which no one can see). Purely by chance this turns out to be the same card!

Derren uses a gimmicked deck to achieve this, as do I, as it allows the ENTIRE performance to be done hands-off; at no point do you touch the deck. You can perform this same trick (taught in the same ebook) with a non-gimmicked deck, but it requires a lot of slight of hand and cannot work one two people at once.


Tom
xx

eh hem........

Explain. Otherwise the assumption is you are a criminal.

Lawrence wrote:
eh hem........

Explain. Otherwise the assumption is you are a criminal.

I think he is referring to Daniel Madisons 'Irreversible' if not, then your right and he is a thief.

As far as I see things, if it's easier to use a gimmick then use it, the simplest way of performing an effect is generally the best, leaving you more time and head space to concentrate on the performance. Why would anyone want to make it harder on themselves?

I applaud anyone though, who upon owning a gimmicked deck effect, wants to test their own thinking and creativity in devising an ungimmicked method. There's just no need to use that method in a real world performance.

phillipnorthfield wrote:I think he is referring to Daniel Madisons 'Irreversible' if not, then your right and he is a thief.

That's right, give him an out why don't you.

The topic is Are Trick Decks Really Necessary? And to that i answer yes in the sense they've been designed to acheive a certain effect in the most simple and effective manner.

Now, using an ID deck as an example, sure you could reverse a card in the deck, then psychologically force it and if you hit you could get the spec to go through the cards themselves and find it. It's a gamble, but it could work and there's many effective forces out there.

An ID deck would mean it works every time. So, a huge plus for that one.

However, if you then wanted to carry on and perform some more you'd need to do a deck switch, which shouldn't be so hard if the ID deck has the desired effect.

Of course this then means carrying around two decks. Depending on your attire, persona, and setting, this could be easy or hard.

There are many facets to the notion of using trick decks, and like anything it comes down to personal preference. When i started i hated gimmicks and wouldn't use them. I wanted everything to be clean and pure. Just me and a deck of cards baby. How wrong could i be? There are many splendid effects that are self working or just require simple sleights, but there are also many splendid effects that require a gimmick and have a huge effect on an audience.

Set ups / trick decks / gimmicks, it all depends on what you want to acheive, how easy you like life to be, and where you're going after a certain effect.

Grimshaw wrote:The topic is Are Trick Decks Really Necessary? And to that i answer yes in the sense they've been designed to acheive a certain effect in the most simple and effective manner.

Now, using an ID deck as an example, sure you could reverse a card in the deck, then psychologically force it and if you hit you could get the spec to go through the cards themselves and find it. It's a gamble, but it could work and there's many effective forces out there.

An ID deck would mean it works every time. So, a huge plus for that one.

However, if you then wanted to carry on and perform some more you'd need to do a deck switch, which shouldn't be so hard if the ID deck has the desired effect.

Of course this then means carrying around two decks. Depending on your attire, persona, and setting, this could be easy or hard.

There are many facets to the notion of using trick decks, and like anything it comes down to personal preference. When i started i hated gimmicks and wouldn't use them. I wanted everything to be clean and pure. Just me and a deck of cards baby. How wrong could i be? There are many splendid effects that are self working or just require simple sleights, but there are also many splendid effects that require a gimmick and have a huge effect on an audience.

Set ups / trick decks / gimmicks, it all depends on what you want to acheive, how easy you like life to be, and where you're going after a certain effect.

There are several routines of doing the EXACT same routine as an ID, but with a regular shuffled deck. Generally the slights are very hard though, but it IS technically possible.

Eshly wrote:There are several routines of doing the EXACT same routine as an ID, but with a regular shuffled deck. Generally the slights are very hard though, but it IS technically possible.

I am aware of this. The point of my post was....why take the bumpy road? Which answers the question, Are Trick Decks yadda yadda. They're necessary because they make life easier. And i like an easy life. However, they make it difficult to carry on with another effect if you're using an ID as i was in my example. Yes, there are sleights that can give you the same effect as an ID but what about a Svengali Deck?

We're in danger of going in circles here.

I wasn't trying to say otherwise, however I find, from personal experience, that the vast majority of those people I have shown tricks to, do think up the idea that the cards I use aren't real, like I say I don't neccesarily disagree with them, I just feel that with these reactions the best choice would be, for me at least, to stick to normal cards, I would hate to not be able to have everything completely examinable at any given moment.

As I say, no disrespect or anything to anyone who uses trick decks, they are just not for me.

No offense is meant here, but - if you are willing to have everything you use be examined by your audience at any time - wouldn't that make a dreadfully boring performance?

As others have said before - if people constantly ask to see your props, YOU are doing something wrong, not the gimmick/prop.

The other thing is that having them examine things some times isn't needed.

Do you have people examine the cards after you've done an effect with a normal deck every time? No, because that would just be silly and waste time. The same can be said when you do anything with stuff that can examined. Sure it CAN be handed out and examined... But whats the point? Sure they now know that it's not a gimmick or prop, but everybody else in the audience is most likely going to fall asleep or get annoyed with it.

As with non examinable items, I'd say the best way to treat them is just like you would any other things. Without guilt or fear, and casually.

I get the feeling that when people say that they prefer everything to be examinable, that some people here think we either pass out our props at the start and end of every effect, that of course would be stupid, not only would it make things very slow and boring, but it would scream out that maybe something else isn't quite savy. As for people asking to see things, again, if one person feels the need to ask once then that is fine, I would call anyone a lier who says they've never in their time working with magic has not come across someone who has asked. Of course if someone keeps asking repeatedly, you would be ok to say that they've already inspected that deck and there is no need, and that you need to just carry on, in a table hopping situation I think this is an acceptable thing to do.

So again, wanting things to be examinable doesn't mean we pass things out at every oppotunity to be inspected, it just means that we like things to be for that rare time when you'll get that one person just ask.

Who cares about those rare times?

Does anyone ask to inspect David Copperfield's whatever he's using at the time? Do people ask Paul Daniels to let them check out his cups in the middle of his routine? No - and they shouldn't be asking you.

Just because your stage is a table, and you're not a Vegas headliner, or the like, doesn't mean you deserve any less respect than the top performers in the field. An audience member asking once may be fine (though I disagree), like you said - and it's just as fine to refuse that request.

The only time "go ahead, check it out" should really be a part of your routine, is if you script it in, yourself. Any other time, and you risk losing control of your audience. You also put yourself in hot water if, somewhere down the road, you are asked to allow examination of something you absolutely can't allow. Now, instead of protecting the secret of one effect, you've potentially ruined the strength of the rest.