talkmagic.co.uk

No one is disputing that mentalism is trickery. That's not the issue. The issue is how that trickery is presented.

If I go to an action movie that's trickery. I know Bruce Willis didn't really stand on the wing of a jet fighter in Die Hard 4. It was a trick, presented as an action movie. If I go and see David Copperfield, I see tricks presented as magic. If I go to see a mentalist I expect to see tricks presented either as psychology (like Derren) or as mentalism.

I feel let down if I see tricks presented as magic during a mentalism show. It's not about feeling superior; it's a presentational style. It is a style that has an internal logic, and it's a style I will stick to.

Where is the internal logic in doing a newspaper tear and following it with a Q&A?

Mr_Grue wrote:The effect it has on the audience, ultimately. I'm thinking of Teller's cigarette routine, in which he appears to light and smoke a cigarette. The whole thing is a series of illusions, but it isn't "magic" because in effect nothing magical happens. Ironically, it only becomes magical when the sequence is explained; at the point at which the trickery itself is exposed.

Well said

In my opinion magic is the feeling you get when you see something amazing, sleight of hand and mentalism are two ways of accomplishing that

I'm reminded of a story I heard of when Teller tried for ages to make the perfect floating ball routine. It was technically perfect, but there wasn't something quite right. His solution: explain that it's all done with thread. Because the fact it was technically amazing and looked impossible once you know there's thread there, it was magical

Mr_Grue wrote:

MagicalSmithy wrote:I saw an effect at a meet up, Ian, told me the name of my best friend, who I had not mentioned, I had how ever wrote down his name, somehow using this (regardless of weather I hid while i done it ) he found out because of this, hence the mentalism was a magic trick.

But he also described him to you...

(Are con artists magicians?)

I can only assume, cold reading, but, cold reading is still magic, Convincing the layman you are doing one thing whilst you are doing something quite different, AKA trickery.

I'm sorry Magical Smithy but there is a big difference between performing magic and performing a trick. Try to impress anyone over six by having them select a card shuffle the deck and then find it.

Furthermore if you think about it, what we do is real magic. The stuff like Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings, that's the fake magic.

It baffles me how people can accept that the movie, book and comic book representation of things like computer hacking, working in the F.B.I. and medical and legal practice is not the real version but magic is.

The very idea of magic was started and popularized by the magicians of ancient Egypt, the yogis and gurus of India and the witches and alchemists of old England, guess what? They were doing exactly what we do.

Real magic has never changed. What's changed is the general publics perception of (mainly) the European magician.

Give me one example of your idea of 'real magic' that doesn't come from a work of fiction, just one.

I'm not sure Iain was making any claims about how he was describing your friend.

Thanks Jean-Eugene for that chuckle... you are 100% on the mark when it comes to the idea that what any of us do (Magician or Mentalist) it is "REAL" Magic. . . then again, if anyone took 5 minutes to actually learn the deeper realities behind some of that old arcane stuff they might wake up to the fact that they weren't out to deceive as much as demonstrate what they knew as "fact" -- when society gets turned up-side-down and what we call "science" in today's world become the "occult" understanding of the new re-developing world that has little to no memory of what we knew science as, it too will be mocked and for the very same reasons; it's the same thing just different terminology and altered perspectives.

So yes psychic ability is real. . . from a particular point of view. In fact, if everyone that thought themselves a Mentalist in today's world were to actually learn the craft the old way and stack those older traditions in how mentalism was taught & studied side by side with how Mysticism is done and how the mind of an Occult-Arts student was trained you would see some uncanny parallels. This has been part of my contention for decades (and yes, that would be before I was working Mentalism full time).

But the hair-splitting goes a bit further in that we are forgetting that the idea of a "trick" can be applied in a variety of ways; there's not a single trade in the world that don't have tricks to it that are "exclusive" to it. In today's world the spoken/written language has become a "trick"; many of the tactics used by Mentalists for years that the general public knew nothing of are now taught in High Schools as part of Socializing & Communication skill-building and even Math classes for that matter.

I won't get into things any further, it's all in a new FREE eBook I've got coming out in a week or two (part of a series of FREE "Introductory" books & Reference Lists I'm pulling together -- for those that picked it up, it's much the same as the Cold Reading booklet).

Craig Browning wrote:I won't get into things any further, it's all in a new FREE eBook I've got coming out in a week or two (part of a series of FREE "Introductory" books & Reference Lists I'm pulling together -- for those that picked it up, it's much the same as the Cold Reading booklet).

Mandrake, get your padlock ready. My amazing mentalist skills tell me there will be a thread started by Craig advertising his free ebook, with various replies from various people pointing out that he has in the past attacked free ebooks and suggesting he gets it proofread before giving it again, and a few nice people thanking him for the freebie

I should put it in an envelope where everyone can see

If the book is free I think it is a bit churlish to complain about proofreaders and that sort of thing. Once Reverend Browning starts to charge money then I think it is fair enough to moan and groan.

I'd like to think we've all learned something from events in the past....

Mandrake wrote:I'd like to think we've all learned something from events in the past....

Amen to that.

Tomo wrote:Amen to that.

Alleluia brother, I shall now pass amongst you with the collection plate - I hear the chink of coins, I'd much rather hear the rustle of paper....

Back on topic, though...

I think there's no problem with a magician performing mindreading stunts, prediction effects and suchlike as part of their repertoire.

If they did, they's be magicians, their show would be a magic show, and the mindreading stunts would be another of their magic illusions.

Nowt wrong with that.

It's only mentalism, however, when the audience is allowed to doubt what's real and what isn't. A display of mentalism should sit in a grey area of ambiguity.

Even as a lowbrow performer in comedy clubs, I do mindreading stunts with no claims and no disclaimers, and no allusion to trickery. I think that qualifies those particular performances as 'mentalism'.

But - as I said - when it comes to close-up bookings, it's all sponge balls, cards and rope...

Pete

The answer is simple

In our culture , Magic is a Trick. Mentalism can be real.


I say in our " culture , because in some places in our earth, we still can create a religion with a simple TT and some FT.

GreatAlexander wrote:The answer is simple

In our culture , Magic is a Trick. Mentalism can be real.


I say in our " culture , because in some places in our earth, we still can create a religion with a simple TT and some FT.

Good point with that last bit. In UCR, I've met many Indian people who either believe or have family members believe in that one guy who produces ash with a TT. He apparently uses sleight of hand to produce golden "idols" as well. I've chatted with some of the people and talked about how he got caught and demonstrated TT work (without explicitly exposing it-- I have ways of cleanly showing my hands despite the TT). I hope, if nothing else, they question the legitimacy of the conman SOB.

mark lewis wrote:If the book is free I think it is a bit churlish to complain about proofreaders and that sort of thing. Once Reverend Browning starts to charge money then I think it is fair enough to moan and groan.

Thanks Mark...

The book has been corrected thanks to some of the folks that downloaded the original. . . I don't recall my ever saying anything about "FREE" eBooks and if I did it was probably for reasons other than the fact that they were being given away. The purpose of the FREE Books I'm offering is quite simple; so newbies and be given a link to a resource that will answer most of their standard questions and likewise give them as complete a list as I can compile on said topic. This reduces the redundancy we find on forums because people are too lazy to use the search features on a phpBB based forum. . . those same questions that get asked at least every other week and suck up bandwidth not to mention general sanity (which is on very short supply on this end).

As usual I've been roasted by members on this forum while praised on boards that I don't even belong to. . . some of the highest kudos being on that green board whose fascist management detest me. . . for telling the truth about them. But that's another story altogether.

HOWEVER: if you don't want a FREE book you simply don't have to download any of them.