talkmagic.co.uk

The_Outlaw wrote:Spiritualism, Ouija Boards, Soothsaying, Fortune telling, and all other forms of Divination 'are not' a form of 'Entertainment'.
They are all forms of the Occult and Devil worship.
Anyone who wants to disagree with my statement is clearly 'Uninformed' on the topic.

What great debating skills. I'm convinced.

I actually agree with the "occult" bit, if you use the word in the sense of "hidden or secret", or "beyond the ordinary range of knowledge".

If I were to start a religion, and were really serious about it, I'd tell my flock that all other belief systems are not only wrong, but will lead to immense suffering. In fact, they aren't just wrong, they are a direct insult to the divine being/natural order/whatever I have based this religion on, and practising these "evil arts" is helping the opposition.

I think I'd probably also make people pay huge sums of cash to progress up the organisation. That's a cracking idea that isn't directly condoned by many religions. Indirectly, well that's another story.

I am not saying that you are wrong, The_Outlaw. That would be arrogant of me, because you might be right. I am saying that tub-thumping assertions posted on the internet are worth the paper they are written on, and I am not limiting that comment to you, or even to this thread.

I must stress that I do not regard people as idiots for believing in a religion. I have a couple of dear friends who have strong Christian beliefs. However, dogma, literalism and unquestioning belief are repulsive to me.

Heading back to the core subject, I can see some validity in the argument that anything that strengthens misguided beliefs could be morally dubious, even if done as entertainment. However, it is not for us to go around telling other people that their beliefs are wrong. After all, they might not be.

I also don't think that a psychic entertainer is under any kind of duty to bang on about how it's all just tricks. For a start, it's bad theatre. Second, the more you try to explain, the more people you will unnecessarily upset, and the more pointless, unwinnable, time-wasting arguments you will start. Like this thread.

It's funny because it does tend to be the armchair types, the ones who claim to know it all but rarely perform for the public that seem to have the strongest opinions based on nothing other than what they have read or come up with in their minds. There's far too many of these kinds of people in magic.

Also, the Dawkins bashing atheists are the ones much more likely to ram their currently popular opinions down people's throats whereas spiritualists, witches etc are more inclined to keep their strongly held beliefs to themselves. At least they are sincere in what they believe whether it's right to you or wrong.

The problem with 'debates' like this is that they go nowhere. All valid points are ignored and soundbites they can twist to fit their single minded, unbudgeable argument will be conveniently quoted. Many times, us that perform these types of shows have stated we don't fleece people or talk to their dead relatives but the same singlemindedness persists.
The truth is, few people understand the concept and point of bizarre /paranormal magic these days but are willing to freely offer their ill informed but strongly stated opinion on it.

Go and practice you Sybil cuts in the bedroom and leave us to go on providing satisfied customers with a great night out.

I am doing tarot readings in a little pub tomorrow. It is not evil, it is not satanic. It is a little bit of fun with some nice background music, scented candles and some happy customers. We are entertainers!

I think what a lot of people don't get, Stephen, is why people like us would choose to make paying customers happy rather than fuel our egos.

http://vimeo.com/13064268

Clearly the uninformed opinions of ignorant, non-performing, armchair magicians who just practice flourishes all day.

ANYONE is qualified to give their two cents on the topic. You're dismissing us the same way you're claiming we dismiss you.

I'm still genuinely curious, how would you answer if someone came up to you after the show and asked you directly if they actually contacted spirits?


And it's possible to make people happy and still be in the wrong. Alternative medicine and most pseudosciences make people happy. They're still wrong and dangerous, regardless of customer satisfaction.

sleightlycrazy wrote:http://vimeo.com/13064268

Clearly the uninformed opinions of ignorant, non-performing, armchair magicians who just practice flourishes all day.

but they are the opinions of a particular movement in performance magic and not exactly open-minded to other forms of magic practice.

The_Outlaw wrote:

Erwin wrote:My missus has been reading the cards since long before we met. I regret infecting her with scepticism tbh, she stopped for a long time, but a few evenings ago she did a reading for me that made the hair stand up on the back of my neck.
My most remarkable ouija experience was almost twenty years ago, only three of us were present and a message came through for one of the group (a PhD psychology lecturer). He was poleaxed by the messages he was receiving, and explained apologetically through floods of tears how he knew exactly what was happening, he is an ardent atheist and sceptic who needs no introduction to the ideomotor response, but the conversation with the deceased continued regardless.
I guess my point is that regardless of the participant's awareness and understanding of the act having no spiritual basis, the impact can still be to shake them to their core. I've never seen 'seance' type acts presented as entertainment (not including Edwards/Acorah psychic mediums here), and I wonder if the practitioners of this art who are members here are accustomed to such profound audience experiences?

Spiritualism, Ouija Boards, Soothsaying, Fortune telling, and all other forms of Divination 'are not' a form of 'Entertainment'.
They are all forms of the Occult and Devil worship.
Anyone who wants to disagree with my statement is clearly 'Uninformed' on the topic.

How very narrow minded!!! And why your at it you should tell all the women to get back into the kitchens!!
Seriously, people use these tools to entertain those that are interested in seeing something unique. NOT because they are devil worshippers!! Whatever next!

nikmagick wrote:

sleightlycrazy wrote:http://vimeo.com/13064268

Clearly the uninformed opinions of ignorant, non-performing, armchair magicians who just practice flourishes all day.

but they are the opinions of a particular movement in performance magic and not exactly open-minded to other forms of magic practice.

I'll concede your point, but I was refuting Lord Freddie's attack on people who have the secular "honest" point of view.

Erwin wrote:Now that that's settled down , I think only Jon and Paul got to answer the original question before we descended into "CHARLATAN!" vs "SATANIST!"

From personal experience, even staunch sceptics can have profound experiences from readings/divination (I include myself in this). Now it goes without saying that my wife can deliver me a 100% accurate bespoke reading since no one knows me or my circumstances better, but what about the Psych Dr confronting his inner turmoil over a deceased friend that he wasn't even aware he was carrying: I wondered if any practitioners have had sceptical audience members have similarly profound experiences. Not demanding examples really, (I know Freddie mentioned Dale's feather story which I read in another thread) just an idea of how common it might be.

As a working Reader I find it more difficult to Read people I know or have an intimate relationship with for the very reason you mention here; I know them too well and as such, I'd be too inclined to "assume" certain information found in a Reading to be or mean a certain thing when it quite very well, may not.

I've have several experience as a Reader that totally negate any of the hogwash would be debunkers and skeptics want to regurgitate. There is absolutely no way to have known any of the details that came up in the Readings -- NONE! Nor was there any kind of "misremembering" events or any of the other typical excuses. . .pardon, I meant to say "explanations" these "experts" love to toss at such instances. Such situations are why I'm only 93% skeptical -- simply seen and encountered too much so-called rationale and critical thinking cannot and never will explain.

For reasons most are already familiar with, I've chosen to stay out of this thread until now, I just had to check in on the point raised in this quote, about knowing someone and reading accuracy. To that point there is one other experience I feel I should convey and that is how an accurate Reading for a friend or family member can reveal things they don't want to come out. It can destroy once intimate connections.

Thank you Craig! Sadly, I think we are wasting our words here and it's only the experienced such as Craig, Stephen, Paul etc who have a true understanding of this " allied art ". The rest are just speculators.

Craig Browning wrote:I've have several experience as a Reader that totally negate any of the hogwash would be debunkers and skeptics want to regurgitate. There is absolutely no way to have known any of the details that came up in the Readings -- NONE! Nor was there any kind of "misremembering" events or any of the other typical excuses. . .pardon, I meant to say "explanations" these "experts" love to toss at such instances. Such situations are why I'm only 93% skeptical -- simply seen and encountered too much so-called rationale and critical thinking cannot and never will explain.

While I dont know the particulars of these revelations surely it could be chance or coincidence ? As you have been doing this for decades its not unreasonable to imagine that every now and again a reading would be remarkably good - and by this time would have several of these to speak of. It would be expected through chance alone.

Im not saying that this IS what happened, obviously I cant say for certain, but I offer it as a possibility.

jim

Freds that in a way just as thinly minded as some of the others on here lolol x

Im sure there are many who do not particpate in the allied arts, but have an understanding of it lol

Dont let a few of many cloud the waters of the whale of temptation, or some other wise surreal saying lolol x

Said with luv, hugs and mwahs

Using your theory, when you give one of the kind of readings that Craig refers to, that's a hell of a lot of coincidences in a short space of time.
There some things that science can't explain. I think on this thread, the mystery entertainers have taken on the role of the magicians and the rest have become that annoying spectator who keeps saying things like "you must have been holding two cards...".

And we all know how irritating those kind of spectators are...

Craig Browning wrote: As a working Reader I find it more difficult to Read people I know or have an intimate relationship with for the very reason you mention here; I know them too well and as such, I'd be too inclined to "assume" certain information found in a Reading to be or mean a certain thing when it quite very well, may not.
>>
For reasons most are already familiar with, I've chosen to stay out of this thread until now, I just had to check in on the point raised in this quote, about knowing someone and reading accuracy. To that point there is one other experience I feel I should convey and that is how an accurate Reading for a friend or family member can reveal things they don't want to come out. It can destroy once intimate connections.

Thanks for your input Craig, this is something I hadn't considered. My thinking on my hair raising reading t'other night is that no reader other than my wife would know the particular experience I am going through at the minute and could possibly hit 100%. For any other close friend or family member I can see the issue you refer to, but for me personally in my own relationship with my life partner it isn't so (or should I say wasn't - this time!). I'm off to discuss this with the Boss now, thanks again

oh come on guys, you don't believe you have some real psychic ability for even a second do ya?