talkmagic.co.uk

I'm sure Faye Presto could say a few things of note on this topic if asked.

The4thCircle wrote:
everyone who doesn't fit those presenting themselves as men doesn't really solve the problem.

I didn't say everyone should do it. You wrote yourself elsewhere that you find it hard to find female attire that is good for prestigitation. You also named elsewhere your own favourite magician, someone who has successfully ditched a gender that wasn't working for them.
I'm not suggesting you do the same full-time, but I'm suggesting it as your act. As far as I know there are currently no male drag magicians (ie females doing a magic drag act). That would make your act unique. Also it would solve the problem you said elsewhere you have about finding female costumes that are suitable for magic. And also it would allow you to side step the public and other magician's expectation that you dress as a Showgirl of Magic. I think you should try it.

However if its not for you then its not for you. It was just an idea.
However I am interested in your search for a new archetype female magician. Let me know when you find what it is and I'll try to follow suit with it.

In my opinion a big reason why I don't think there are many female magi compared to men, at least professionally, is simply because a lot of girls aren't interested in learning it. It's a fairly nerdy, compulsive, reclusive thing to learn. You need personality and intelligence to perform it sure, but behind the scenes there is a lot of solitary confinement for practice. I just don't think this appeals to the majority of women. In general terms men and women like to do fairly different hobbies and have many different interests. That's it.

If you're good at magic you're good, it doesn't matter what you look like and besides you don't have 7 eyes, 5 ears and tongues for arms do you? I think stop focusing on that and if you really want to do it seriously as a profession, just practice and perform until you get there. Personally I'm happy with performing casually.

Good luck!

I'm an enormous fan of Fay Presto, I have a card signed by her on the wall here (I think I mentioned that already elsewhere).

When I spelled my name out for her she pointed out that we have one thing in common - people keep misspelling our names with an extra E (I get Stacey, she gets Faye) but this is off topic.

I was trying to not get this too bogged down like some request for people to find a style for me, though I will be following the advice given by most here and carving my own path if I can. This was more just a sort of discussion of one direction I won't be taking and whether anyone else saw it as a problem which was making the magic community (which I have to say I have found immensely welcoming since actually taking the time to find it) seem closed to women.

-Stacy

Well I really don't want to say all that much as I've had a couple of drinks but I really do think that any female magician should just be who she wants to be. I'll type more on it tomorrow but really, just be who you want to be!

Right...........

Why do i get the feeling your a bit of a self important feminist man hater who watches too much twilight ? maybe because almost every post you make is about your struggle to make it in this cruel male ruled profession where no one takes you seriously because your a woman, its either that or you post about your low self esteem while also bashing a 14yr olds dress sense .

You make a whole new big thread to talk about yourself and then the other women on here that you have had to jump to defend their honour from the sexist men then you try to embarress people on here !! you say you dont want to name names to make things personal but you pretty much described both threads so people can find them easily to see who your talking about. And then you mentioned how you called him out on it and that he said he meant it innocently but he couldnt think of a innocent answer in its place (basicly saying he was lying and you caught him out) even after the original women posted after saying she knew what he meant !!! Who are you to be jumping on people and judging their characters !?

From all the posts on here you make about your low self esteem and how unhappy you are with your self image (if i felt that bad about myself i wouldnt have a picture of myself as my avatar i know that much) maybe you should join a 2nd forum to help with your self esteem problems and a 3rd forum for people to discuss feminist stuff and just talk about magic on here.

All the jobs ive done are very male orientated - ive been a personal trainer, a doorman (am still) and i was well on my way to being a pro mma fighter (UFC) but there have always been women doing those things as well and succeeding at them. Some people will never make it and just whinge and blame them not making it on different excuses e.g gender/colour/sexuality etc where as other people wont whinge and moan and blame everyone else and just get out there and give it their all.

Rant over

Hey Stacy,

I did try to post my own thoughts on this for you earlier, but somehow navigated away from the page before submitting - sorry!

Whilst jon-kent, above, may seem a little blunt in his apraisal of your presentation on this forum, I have to admit (and mentioned it in my 'lost' post) that you *do* come across as very "poor, sexually-discriminated-against-me".

I understand that this is almost certainly not your intent whatsoever, but - so far as I can see - you are making this far more of an issue for yourself than it really needs to be.

As with ANY magician, concentrate on your routines, concentrate on your skills, concentrate on your chosen persona; anybody who has issue with your gender, after these facts, quite simply isn't worth bothering with, end-of!

Mostly, however, enjoy your magical journey, and let go of this angst

Wow. Wasn't expecting that... um...

I sort of feel like I should respond...

First, I thought I gave a balanced viewpoint on Jack. Lots of people had knocked his style and I was actually saying as out of place as it seemed it might have worked for him in the long run. Maybe I wasn't clear enough on that.

Self esteem issues... yeah maybe, but it's okay because being chewed out on forums makes me feel better (that's why you did it, right? You just have my best interests at heart. Of course you do.)

I'm glad some people agreed with me before the backlash started because otherwise I might have actually felt pretty bad about this whole thing. Yes I jumped on other threads where I perceived people to be acting in a slightly sexist way, not to say that they're sexist people, these things just creep in, you know? I know what it's like, I've told inappropriate jokes and regretted it afterwards.

The point of this thread was just to lay out what I thought was a fairly good observation about the current state of magic in the public eye so that it would have a place of its own and I wouldn't have to bring it up again. I don't think I said I was unsuccessful because I'm unattractive, I just pointed out that there was this image thing going on. I have every intention of succeeding in spite of my image issues, but I know not everyone would work through that.

What really inspired this was a comment to a new member. Not a comment to me. Not a comment about me. It was a comment about women in magic that yeah, maybe I misunderstood, but other people might misunderstand such things too. Magic is perceived as a boys club no one seems to know why, I was offering a possible explanation and hoping to help.
Just trying to make the world a better place.

Failing, it seems.

But trying.

-Stacy

Oh and for reference, I don't hate men, I have a brother and I work with men, if I hated them I'd probably have gone nuts by now.

Also Twilight? Seriously?

The4thCircle wrote:Self esteem issues... yeah maybe, but it's okay because being chewed out on forums makes me feel better (that's why you did it, right? You just have my best interests at heart. Of course you do.

No i dont im not a therapist im just bored of your poor me posts

Oh, believe me, Stacy...I'm not disagreeing with you as such - your points of view on the issues raised are more than valid.

Focussing on these issues to the exclusion of your own development, though (let alone inviting additonal comment), simply won't help anybody progress in any career choice.

It's a contentious isue, sure, but one that's as prone to stalling personal progress as religion, politics or (God forgive me) sports.

Hope you don't take too much offense

Rob

I'm going to agree with stacy here. While I have a remarkable lack of experiance in actually being a woman, I'm sure I've talked to one a few times. I do get the feeling that there is a very small niche for females in magic at the moment, and the reactions from male magicians when one turns up at club is quite saddening. The thing is, at the moment, I don't think, when it comes to this aspect, skil counts for very much at all. I mean, it's still performance but the expected performance for females seems to be very narrow, with no real room for individuality and when a performer strays away from this, it is met with far more apprehension than if a male were to try something new persona wise.
I'm going to jump to the end point of my musing, without detailing all the bpring in between stuff but I think a good idea to do, if performing to a crowd rather than friends or family is take a persona to the extreme, don't make it look like you just don't want to be the stereotypical female magician, make a strong character that completely defies that in a fun and interesting way. If it were me, I'd be making jokes about the current stereotypes (in a VERY lighthearted way).
I think the main thing to an audience would be that you aren't simply spurning 'tradition' but actively creating something new.

Oh Stacy, what have you done?

The4thCircle wrote:This was more just a sort of discussion of one direction I won't be taking and whether anyone else saw it as a problem which was making the magic community (which I have to say I have found immensely welcoming since actually taking the time to find it) seem closed to women.

Derren Brown has commented on this. He was talking about mentalism, but he observed that really the only female character you have is a fortune teller. I am not entirely sure that's correct, but as I recall he was making a similar point to your one, in that there's no obvious path for a female mentalist to take.

However, I think your concern is really over what I'd call "classic" magic, but I'm going to throw out a couple of questions. Exactly what are the currently used magic styles, and why can they not be used by women?

I think most of the current styles are actually pretty gender neutral. Why couldn't you have a female version of Chav Magic or Dynamo (shh, Lord Freddie, they are not the same)? Instead of a zany male kids performer, why couldn't you have a female clown or a silly "auntie" who always gets things wrong (maybe even a magical nanny - there are a couple of precedents in fiction for that)? Why do all card sharps have to be men? Lots of women play poker. Can only guys be experts in psychology and mind control?

I think that, if you look at current performers and whatever schtick they use (no, not the type of wand), actually most of them could work for women too.

I think there are some issues. The first is the one you mention, which is that women are normally viewed as the glamorous assistant. That will not change until enough women get out and perform. Fifty years ago, house husbands would be almost unheard of. They are still relatively rare, but the numbers will continue to grow. If people like you keep performing, you can change the perception, if you are good and if you do your own thing.

VE Day mentioned Doug Henning. He didn't actually wear scruffy clothes, but his stage costumes were colourful versions of contemporary casual wear. It suited his personality, and he created something unique. David Blaine popularised (maybe created) the almost monosyllabic street magician, who avoids patter and concentrates on the trick. If no one is doing what you want, maybe you have to blaze your own trail. It'd be much easier to copy someone, or have a recognised style to follow, but ultimately, your seeling point should be you.

The second is related. Magic is male-dominated. Magic clubs are full of men. It is partly self-perpetuating, of course, but I also think there's an element of gender bias that arises from the nature of certain pastimes. There are very few male knitters. Most serious anglers are male. One of my other hobbies is papercrafting, and the vast majority of people who share that hobby are female. I quite enjoy the fact that I am one of the exceptions, but it does sometimes make me feel a bit weird! When that person said a woman magician could use her gender to her advantage, he perhaps did mean what you think, but why couldn't the rarity value count for something?

Here's another couple of female magicians you might want to know about, neither of whom need to resort to overtly flirtatious presentations (on which subject I entirely agree with Beardy):

http://www.juliecarpenter.co.uk/
http://www.julianachen.com/

Wow. It took me so long to get that last post roughly how I wanted it that things moved on, and not in a good way. While I can see that jon_kent has some justification for some of the points he made, the way in which they were made seems totally out of line to me.

The "Oh Stacy" thing seems even more appropriate now...

Well i think its totally out of line for a silly girl to accuse a freind of mine on here and other people on here with mrs and kids of being sexist and trying to embarrass them publicly online whilst making themself out to be some sort of crusader !

So let me get this straight. You say you don't like the idea of wearing a corset. But then you say you are interested in wearing a re-enactment costume!
Then when other people make suggestions you say it might make some feminist writers angry. I think you need to start being more positive, as suggested by others above, and get away from this out of date idea of a binary gender divide.

This is the 21st Century and you can be anything you want to be, your gender is irrelevant. Stop trying to make it relevant and start being more positive about what you want to do. Be a magician and magic away your worries about your gender.