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Greetings...

I'm working on an effect for which I would like to force an object. Suppose the spec has a choice of 5-10 items how could I get them to choose the one I want them to without using equivoque (I could) but I'd rather come up with something where I'm not playing that role in the spec's decision. Any thoughts? or recommended reading?

Thanks for any insight...
-B

Number the objects, have each number on a card and force the card as you would a playing card. Alternatively write the names of the objects on the cards but sill force the one you want.

stick to 6, and do the hot rod force.

Baal wrote:Greetings...

I'm working on an effect for which I would like to force an object. Suppose the spec has a choice of 5-10 items how could I get them to choose the one I want them to without using equivoque (I could) but I'd rather come up with something where I'm not playing that role in the spec's decision. Any thoughts? or recommended reading?

Thanks for any insight...
-B

Hmm, I know you said you want to avoid it, but IMHO, there are not going to be many approaches that are cleaner than a decent Equivoque.

I'd recommend the excellent PDF & seminar combo of "E'voque" from Docc Hillford.

Also, and I've not read this second one so can't vouch for it, Kenton Knepper's "Direct Control" is all about forcing objects so may be worth reading. Marketplace of the Mind reviewed it HERE and described it as "a must-have for mentalists".

Magic 101 Lesson: Get Annemann's 202 Forces manuscript so you have a more rounded sense of resource; five at least a half-dozen methods you're comfortable with and use them (with moderation) and you'll be fine.

The Hilford and Maven overviews on the "Magician's Choice" sequence are a "must" especially if you intend to dabble in Mentalism. I dare say that Rick Maue's TERASABOS and THE FINAL PICTURE likewise fit this "must learn" category because they explain a great deal about the psychology behind physical influences on a force.

Thanks so much for the advice everybody, I really appreciate it. I have the Doc Hillford pdf and I'll revisit that, come to think of it I might even have the KK, and I'll start hunting for some of the others as well. I feel like I've got some good food for thought now. One thing I did forget to mention, and this is kind of crucial to the effect: Not only do I need to force an object, but I need it to appear that the spec has made their selection without my knowing. So, the spec will make a choice that is seemingly their own private knowledge (therein lies the problem with equivoque and the hot rod force), and then later in the routine their choice can be revealed. Numbering cards and objects could work, but its not quite the presentational style I'm looking for. If any one has any more insight I look forward to hearing it. Thanks again to all who posted.

-B

It would help if we knew what the objects are.

Baal wrote:Thanks so much for the advice everybody, I really appreciate it. I have the Doc Hillford pdf and I'll revisit that, come to think of it I might even have the KK, and I'll start hunting for some of the others as well. I feel like I've got some good food for thought now. One thing I did forget to mention, and this is kind of crucial to the effect: Not only do I need to force an object, but I need it to appear that the spec has made their selection without my knowing. So, the spec will make a choice that is seemingly their own private knowledge (therein lies the problem with equivoque and the hot rod force), and then later in the routine their choice can be revealed. Numbering cards and objects could work, but its not quite the presentational style I'm looking for. If any one has any more insight I look forward to hearing it. Thanks again to all who posted.

-B

..which is the goal of any force. For the spectator to not be aware they something is being forced on them. It is all about presentation. As Dale mentioned if we knew what the objects are, it may make a difference. It could be something as simple as throwing them all into a paper bag and they reach into the bag to select one. Or it could be more, we don't know without more info.

Every trick has a compromise. Trying to force an object in circumstances where you are not supposed to know what was chosen makes it even more difficult.

There are expensive (and slightly less expensive) ways to know which object a spectator has picked up, without you looking. These would allow you to move into equivoque without (apparently) knowing what object has been touched.

I agree that knowing exactly what these objects are would help. If they are all very similar, it might be easier than a random collection of different items. Forcing a particular colour poker chip has a bit more leeway than trying to force one particular item from a set of miniatures.

Another possibility is to use one of those matrix forces (move left to the nearest silver object, etc.), but these can be a bit procedural. I worked out all the possible options in my head as a performer went through one of these, so I knew it was a force. If I can do it, others can...

One more option is to have the objects printed on cards, as Mandrake said. Say that, obviously, everyone knows that it's possible to psychologically influence which object will be picked by positioning, use of particular words, body language, etc., so to make sure that this person takes an object in an entirely fair manner, it will be decided by a random choice of these flashcards.

Okay the objects...photos printed on a hard cardboardish material, they're roughly 4x6". I'm thinking a gaffed paper bag at this point and I'm going to experiment with that. I've thought about mathematical forces, but in my own mind they'd appear too methodical (puzzles with intended outcomes). I looked over Anneman's and while there are certainly some great forces there, especially for playing cards, nothing struck me as suitable for this presentation. I agree about TRESABOS, in terms of it being a crucial read. I have some ideas though, and I really appreciate everyone's input. I'm certainly open to any more suggestions...now to embark down the rabbit hole of magic book reading.

-B

I thinking that force bag is probably the easiest way to go with this. Although there are some good matrix forces that can work well with photos depending on how you're using them.

Something like Richard Osterlind's Two Faced? I think the actual ones are too large for what you want, but if you bought one, you could make up some smaller versions and they make perfect sense for photographs. Have half a dozen frames and the job is as good as done.

I seem to remember Derren Brown doing a photograph force with 12 photos. They were a mixture of colour and black and white photos and were laid out in a grid.

Magus wrote:I seem to remember Derren Brown doing a photograph force with 12 photos. They were a mixture of colour and black and white photos and were laid out in a grid.

Yes, as he said at the time, it was absolutely out of this world.

Mandrake wrote:

Magus wrote:I seem to remember Derren Brown doing a photograph force with 12 photos. They were a mixture of colour and black and white photos and were laid out in a grid.

Yes, as he said at the time, it was absolutely out of this world.

No that was during the seance and is a different force