talkmagic.co.uk

Is it because they prey on the weak and the vulnerable for their own financial gain?

I call that Darwinism in action.

Tomo wrote:The thing about being able to do something is being able to do it, and psychic abilities consistently fail that crucial repeatability test.

Taking into account Mark's very good point above that psychic abilities like most human skills are not consistant, I would have to say that I take the Fortean point of view that absence of evidence does not equate to evidence of absence. I totally concur that a great many pre-cog events are simply thoughts/drawings/dreams etc that have significance only in hindsight and that like the 'I thought of them and they called' events ignores all the times when the person was thought of and didn't call, however they are a great many incidences of 'something' outside of the five senses being demonstrated that it's a mistake to dismiss the whole subject as hokum.

Basically I remain open minded, just because I know how to fake a phenomena, does not mean that all occurences of said phenomena are faked.

The problem of repeatability has a long history. It's also interesting to note that the problems of actually testing supposed psychics go all the way back to 1852 and Faraday's investigation into table turning. He nailed table turning, tu he didn't set out to prove it one way or another. Instead, he simply collected and published his data to remove any trace of experimenter bias. Crookes' deeply flawed attempt to prove that D.D Home was the real deal set the whole field back in 1871-73, but his subsequent beguilement at the hands of Florence Cooke, her preposterous avatar Katie King and other "tricky gels" also threatened his entire career. Interestingly, the setting up of the Society for Psychical Research in 1882 under Frederick Myers was the first systematised attempt to deal statistically with anomalous psychology, and required researchers to specifically leave their beliefs at the door. Compare and contrast the work they did and write up http://bit.ly/PYRnlg (including thoroughly debunking Theosophy) with the utter mess that "tricky boys" Shaw, Edwards and Randi caused (Project Alpha 1979 - 81) when they realised they could drive a coach and horses through the Washington study, which had been set up to specifically find evidence for psychokenesis. That time, researchers even refused to follow up evidence from old school friends that Shaw and Edwards were amateur magicians!

Now over to Professor Courtenay Raia wearing a very nice hat for a full historical summary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l811HzlgdE

Heckler wrote:

Tomo wrote:The thing about being able to do something is being able to do it, and psychic abilities consistently fail that crucial repeatability test.

Taking into account Mark's very good point above that psychic abilities like most human skills are not consistant, I would have to say that I take the Fortean point of view that absence of evidence does not equate to evidence of absence. I totally concur that a great many pre-cog events are simply thoughts/drawings/dreams etc that have significance only in hindsight and that like the 'I thought of them and they called' events ignores all the times when the person was thought of and didn't call, however they are a great many incidences of 'something' outside of the five senses being demonstrated that it's a mistake to dismiss the whole subject as hokum.

Basically I remain open minded, just because I know how to fake a phenomena, does not mean that all occurences of said phenomena are faked.

That would make sense, But a lot Psychics seem to repeat the ability at will and only struggle when measures are taken to remove foul play. Many of my friends visits readers and mediums and not once have they been told nothing.

I actually find myself agreeing with the Rev Lewis here, after years of giving readings there is a certain something you obtain which can't be learnt from a book.

The original post does look like a wind-up. It's not as easy a field to work as many magicians assume and giving readings is not as glam as you may suspect, I prefer the term 'cosmic counseller' which is far more apt. You won't receive rounds of applause, Blaine style "oh my gods" or who did you do that's - the reaction are far different and quite often people will become emotional. This is people's lives and beliefs you are toying around with, not a deck of cards.

The main stumbling block that magicans have when giving readings is that of the monstrous ego's that come with being known to your friends as "the magic man". When you are performing magic, it's all about you, the amazing person that can do incredible things but giving a reading is all about THEM. This is the fundamental thing that a magician fails to comprehend or understand. As you seem to desire the hero-like applause at the end of a seance by revealing it's all fake, then stick to magic.

The people that attend seances are likely to be shut-eyes and new agers and if you discredit their beliefs, reveal what they have experienced to be fake then you will have an angry, disappointed audience who will see you as a cheap and tacky fraudster. Word will get round and no one will buy a ticket for your next seance. Seances are all about experiences for those attending, not watching someone with an ego bigger than the Incredible Hulk's underpants, so if someone experiences something and you claim it's all fake then technically you are calling them a liar. That'll go down well.

It's quite a different audience than the magic world. What never fails to amaze me is how many magicians claim to hate mediums, etc but want a slice of the lucratuive action. If you have NO beliefs in this area and despise it then your audience will soon pick up on this. Being passionate about something is infectious so stick to what you actually like.

Just my advice.

Aza wrote:i understand that morally it is wrong to exploit people etc. but.........

Much love

Aza

But what? I'm dying to hear you justify exploiting people

"I'm disgusted by drug dealers preying on people and pushing drugs on vulberable people and addicts.

Would it be hypocritical of me to sell a few kilos of heroin as a sideline to make a bit of easy cash?"

I'm not an ignorant, biggotted, racist, homophobe; but....

Brilliantly put Freddie, what I was trying to say but much more eloquently said.

Readings are very difficult things to give, there's so much to think about when giving a reading and ethics are top of that list. Magicians often seem to forget that their sitter is a real person and is coming to you because they've got genuine concerns and worries regarding their life. You will have a few that are there for the fun of it but most are going to take on board and very possibly act on what you tell them. Even simple sounding questions can require a lot of care, something straight forward sounding like 'what's the future with my boyfriend?' (actually a very common question) may not be as simple it might sound. It could just be that the couple are considering their future together and perhaps marrage but she could really be saying that the pair have split up and wants to know if they're likely to get back together. There could be an abusive relationship and she's looking for a way out, she may have just found out that the boyfriend's cheating on her or she may not even have a boyfriend but is infatuated and obsessive over particular a person. I've come across each of these and the first job of the reader is to understand exactly what it is that the sitter's asking and that's not something that can be picked up from a book. You also need to think carefull about how you'd go about handling the questions, your approach needs to be very different for each, you can't just use stock lines or coldreading, unfortunatly not everything can be pink and fluffy. A reader needs to act responsibly depending on the situation.

You will come across people who are distraught, they want answers and not tricks. I've given sessions where I've not read a single card, but instead decided that the best thing to do is to just sit, listen and chat.

About a year ago I was in Watkins bookshop, which is a pretty famous spitualist/occult shop on Cecil Court in London (well worth a visit). They have a secluded corner where they offer regular readings. There was a young chap reading the tarot for a young lady. His voice was unusually loud for what should have been a private reading. I couldn't help but hear every word. Here follows a genuine exerpt that I heard:

A) you're just starting out in your career.
B) Errr
A) You're a creative person. (spoken as a statement but with the intonation of a question)
B) Not really.
A) Definitely. You're creative, and compassionate. I think this is reflected in your job.
B) No not really
A) You have a job that requires creativity though. It requires you to be creative or compasisonate like a teacher, or social work.
B) Not really, I'm a data inputter.

I nearly choked. Now maybe he was having a bad day. Maybe the tarot was being naughty or maybe he just wasn't very good. I can only go on experiences I've had, as can we all. I've had my palm read by a 'seer' in the heart of Sri Lanka, and I've had my tarot read by a genuine honest to goodness salt of the earth traveling gypsy. Both were fairly transparent. However, I would never dare to dismiss the fact that there may be genuine people out there. I just haven't met them yet. I hope one day that I do.

After all, if there's no magic left in the world, it ain't a world worth living in!!

Oh, I almost forgot - the Gypsy told me that the next time we met, I would have twins. I'm not that bothered about having twins, but the Doctor who peformed my vasectomy last year is going to get a shock when I sue him!

kevmundo wrote:Oh, I almost forgot - the Gypsy told me that the next time we met, I would have twins. I'm not that bothered about having twins, but the Doctor who peformed my vasectomy last year is going to get a shock when I sue him!

By "having twins" he may mean you'll have sex with Jedward (or if you're lucky The Cheeky Girls). Look forward to that.
There are bad readers as well as good readers in the same way you get bad magicians.

One of the reasons why paranormal performers rarely discuss this side of the art on forums and have secret sections is because of the hostile and cliched responses it gets from finger flickers who think because they have read 'The God Delusion' they are the font of all wisdom. It's a real shame and it's not kept underground for any reason other than numptys like the original poster who will leap into this field and either (a) make a fool of themselves or (b) upset people.

Lord Freddie wrote:

kevmundo wrote:Oh, I almost forgot - the Gypsy told me that the next time we met, I would have twins. I'm not that bothered about having twins, but the Doctor who peformed my vasectomy last year is going to get a shock when I sue him!

By "having twins" he may mean you'll have sex with Jedward (or if you're lucky The Cheeky Girls). Look forward to that.
There are bad readers as well as good readers in the same way you get bad magicians.

Haha! Please let it be the cheeky girls!!!!

Lord Freddie wrote:One of the reasons why paranormal performers rarely discuss this side of the art on forums and have secret sections is because of the hostile and cliched responses it gets from finger flickers who think because they have read 'The God Delusion' they are the font of all wisdom. It's a real shame and it's not kept underground for any reason other than numptys like the original poster who will leap into this field and either (a) make a fool of themselves or (b) upset people.

This is why i am keeping quite on the matter!

mrz0mbie wrote:

Aza wrote:i understand that morally it is wrong to exploit people etc. but.........

Much love

Aza

But what? I'm dying to hear you justify exploiting people

Well my justification would be as follows:

People have a free choice as to whether they wish to believe and attend, nobody forces them to part with their cash for me.

If i were to venture down this road it would be purely for the purposes of entertainment and in no way shape or form would i profess genuine psychic abilities, i think toying with people's emotions is wrong and certainly immoral.

As to the other comments, i did not start this post in an attempt to troll or cause upset, i was hoping for an adult discussion, but i am slowly learning that there are a few people here who cannot help but degenerate discussions into argument, perhaps for their own sense of superiority?

I was of the understanding that this is a magic forum but perhaps i was mistaken and this is a forum that supports defrauding people by using entertainment methods and claiming supernatural ability and all the rest of that b*ll*cks, so by me asking a question and to be referred to as a numpty and various other insults i find quite disgraceful behaviour, but luckily the vast amount of keyboard warriors on this forum will generally amount to nothing more than a bedroom magician who knows everything they read but never actually has the ability to perform to real people due to their unfortunate social awkwardness which is why they degenerate into flinging insults on a message board and would never actually say a single word to me if it was face to face due to fear of confrontation.

I now see why magicians have a bad reputation