talkmagic.co.uk

I first encountered card magic on youtube, and I have to say this is how I first came into learning it. I have however, since then learnt a little more respect for the secrecy that goes with tricks (or at least should go with tricks in order for them to remain magical) and started to ditch youtube and use books instead.

My question would be this, do you think it is a good thing that youtube does undoubtedly inspire a younger generation to pursue magic? Or is this overshadowed by the problem of exposure? What do you think can be done to prevent or counter this problem of many tricks and effects being exposed online?

My solution would be this, rather than those who dislike this culture of exposure on youtube and other such sites avoiding them altogether, perhaps the thing to do would be to develop our own content and post our own comments etc - that teaches young magicians respect for the secrecy of certain effects and techniques. An example of this would be to make a video demonstrating a trick (without exposure, and performed well so the trick doesn't expose itself!) and then for those interested in learning the effect, on could point them towards the book or the dvd in which one might learn it - whilst emphasising that they respect the originators by not exposing it themselves. I think most budding magicians would be willing to respect the art if they saw that it was something that should be respected, but the way things are at the moment, it doesn't seem like anyone else cares about exposure on youtube so why should they?

Perhaps the solution is not to give youtube a wide berth entirely, but to try to change the culture to one of respect rather than exposure? I mean if a whole load of people got together and made a short vlog titled something along the lines of 'why you shouldn't learn magic tricks from youtube' - its going to start appearing when people search for 'learn magic tricks' etc. Of course there will still be those who wish to make a name for themselves (and money) by exposing tricks online, but they're only going to make more money if people don't start standing up to them. Especially when so many budding magicians don't really hear many voices talking about the ethics of exposure.

Thoughts?

Apologies if this has been done before, feel free to close this if its been done ad infinitum.

Laurens

Edit:

I think the main point that should be made when persuading people to avoid youtube is that most of the tutorials teach you the method, but they don't teach you how to perform a trick - so budding magicians might get an idea of what they have to do with their hands - but when it comes to amazing people with it, they'll be lost because they've missed out arguably the most important part.

While I appreciate your intentions I do seriously doubt it having any positive effect. The young toe rags who publish their so called exposure and tutorial videos upon that festering sore that is youtube have little of no respect for the art of magic. Their sole purpose is to show off to all their virtual cyber friends and feel some level of worth and self importance through all the praise they receive from their poorly shot and poorly performed videographs.

There is countless good quality magic on youtube but they're not interested in that, they're just interested in showing off the latest cool trick. They're not going to pay money for a magic book when they can find it on a torrent site or video by another socially inept, bedroom magician.

Unfortunatly my friend, I feel that this is just the mentality of young people of this time. On a positive note I can assure you that not one of them will amount to anything in the world of magic and many will be lucky to perform to an audience other than Aunt Betty in the drawing room at Christmas.

My view of youtube from a wholly magical perspective is highly negative. Not because of the huge copyright theft that goes on, (people have been bootlegging and copying stuff for years - the internet is just a new medium) but because of how utterly inept the people are who feel they have to spew out their unique brand and twaddle to the masses, under the pretense of actually being reasonably accomplished.

Any search of youtube for 'magic tricks revealed' or somesuch matter, will quickly result in a 6 minute clip of some grubby teenager stuttering and fumbling his way through an explanation of someone elses effect. An effect that they have essentially learnt (badly) and then decided in some self obsessed vainglorious moment of supreme idiocy, to inflict their pathetic interpretation of it on the world at large. Having said that, we must thankfully recognise that the only people who search youtube for 'magic reveals' are either wannabe magicians or the odd casual layman who's interest has been piqued by a recent performance. The sad thing is is that magic lacks the commercial accumen of other fields and so is ignored. I wonder if youtube began publishing clips of the recipe for coca-cola or other 'corporate' secrets, how quickly they would be removed.

Suffice to say, if you want to become a consumate performer of the art of magic/mentalism then youtube must be avoided at all costs. Look at the explanations of the classic pass. Then spend a fortune buying the instruction of a master like Jason England and you'll realise where your money went. Anyone who wants to become proficient in magic has to invest both time, and sadly, a reasonable amount of money. There's no quick fix. And besides, if you see Dynamo performing a trick, and you buy it and start performing it, you won't be rememebered as a great magician. You'll be remembered as the bloke who did the trick that Dynamo does.

After studying the classics and gaining proficiency in them you can start to create your own magic. If you see a new principle, you won't think about copying it, you'll think about how you can adapt it to your own style, change it to something completely different. That is what the denizens of youtube will never recognise. They are about copying and replication. If youtube inspires someone to take up magic then that is a good thing. But they must recognise that youtube really is the poor mans tutor and you get what you pay for. Avoid at all costs!!

K

Perhaps then there is a duty for professional magicians to devise clearer ways of protecting their stuff?

Maybe we as viewers could also play a role by contacting the creators of certain effects that you see being revealed on youtube. They might not have any legal protection (I'm not really sure how it works with magic), but most people who reveal a certain magician's tricks have a certain respect for that magician - so a polite email from the creator asking them to take their video down might work? I dunno.

Its a tough one. But as you say, for any person with a real interest in magic - watching videos of some mumbling buffoon going 'then you kinda to this with your hand... oops I dropped the cards' will soon prove unsatisfactory. It certainly did for me.

I guess the other problem is that a spectator can also look up tricks with the intent of spoiling them. The main way to protect against this as performers would be to avoid giving the names of tricks, and let the spectator ruin the magic for themselves if they're that intent upon it!

If you create your own effects then you can guarantee that there's no-one else performing them. You can use other peoples techniques/principles and completely disguise them. I know for a fact that there isn't a single thing in my stage show that is availbale on youtube. I know because I've looked. My closeup/strollaround set is the same. There isn't a single youtube clip that would reveal what I'm doing. Simple principles in the right hands can quickly turn into miracle workers. Look up 'Ice breaker' by Lee Smith on youtube. Then you'll see a natural performer doing/utilising techniques that would escape most youtube users. Experience and knowledge is more important than the instant fix of youtube.

K

BTW - your footer just happens to be my favourite quote from 1984! On that basis, if we ever meet the first beer is on me!!

kevmundo wrote:If you create your own effects then you can guarantee that there's no-one else performing them. You can use other peoples techniques/principles and completely disguise them. I know for a fact that there isn't a single thing in my stage show that is availbale on youtube. I know because I've looked. My closeup/strollaround set is the same. There isn't a single youtube clip that would reveal what I'm doing. Simple principles in the right hands can quickly turn into miracle workers. Look up 'Ice breaker' by Lee Smith on youtube. Then you'll see a natural performer doing/utilising techniques that would escape most youtube users. Experience and knowledge is more important than the instant fix of youtube.

K

BTW - your footer just happens to be my favourite quote from 1984! On that basis, if we ever meet the first beer is on me!!

I've been working a little on some of my own effects, despite having not been doing it that long. I doubt I'd show them to anyone - at least not without improvement, but I think it is good to think in that way from the start. I've given up on youtube, with the exception of Aaron Fisher's channel - which I find really useful. He gives excellent advice that you don't hear on most youtube 'magic' channels and he also doesn't do trick tutorials, its more about theory and performance etc.

I'm a big Orwell fan! I love 1984, and though that quote is used in a sinister context - I think it takes on a different context when you think about it in terms of magic - which is why I used it as my sig!

Laurens

TBH I still watch Scamschool now and then so the internet is not without it's guilty pleasures, and to be honest you can learn just as much from watching a bad performance as a good performance. Provided you learn from as broad a church as possible then you'll do just fine.

Sine you're a fan of Orwell, please remember, "All magicians are equal, but some magicians are more equal than others."

K

I've put a few performance videos on YouTube (channel: mindmagic42) but I'm very conscious that if you go to any of those pages YouTube will suggest similar pages that may expose how the effect works. I've tried to avoid that as far as possible by not using the effect's official name, but I'm not sure how well that's worked. I've also been very careful in filming, and selective in what I've posted, to avoid accidental exposure - I don't think playing back any of my videos frame-by-frame would give anything away.

Barry

does this all stem from a fear of being caught out because some.. wait what was it.. "young toe rags" or "socially inept, bedroom magicians" (or other insults) and they might make you look like a fool?

or does it stem from the fear that 'the more people that know the less chance i have of succeeding'?

or is it a general protection of the art (a noble cause no doubt)?

If someone wants to learn badly enough they will. those who dont care, soon forget the methods, and lose interest. Its not as bad as you think.

And besides, if you are entertaining enough, then there shouldnt be a problem of being caught out. If you present your work in a way that you can be called out then you will anyway. someone will guess at a method which is still just as bad for an act even if they are wrong, as you will have all experienced.

It is precisesly for this reason that I perform only my own creations and adaptations which fit my act. Thats not getting exposed on youtube because Im not sharing it with anyone. No one can do my act because no one is me. My tricks, presentation and manner is unique.

Theres a very good bit from John Van Der Puts live penguin lecture (Piff the Magic dragon) where he addresses this. Essentially, his whole act was ripped off by someone. Its incredibly bad form, and the impersonater was called out on it.

Just keep working on your stuff, and worry less about what others are doing. If you get bogged down in a youtube battle with 'toe rags' you are not bettering yourselves, just fighting a movement which is inevitable.

besides, one of those toe rags is the next big thing.

magicofthemind wrote:I've put a few performance videos on YouTube (channel: mindmagic42) but I'm very conscious that if you go to any of those pages YouTube will suggest similar pages that may expose how the effect works. I've tried to avoid that as far as possible by not using the effect's official name, but I'm not sure how well that's worked. I've also been very careful in filming, and selective in what I've posted, to avoid accidental exposure - I don't think playing back any of my videos frame-by-frame would give anything away.

Barry

How do you find it with comments? Do you ever get people trying to expose your tricks there? How would you deal with it were that to happen?

That's another irritating thing about youtube, I'll be sitting there enjoying some magic - then'll glance at the comments and find people engaged in a furious debate about how all the tricks are done. Most of them seem erroneous, and some of them are amusing in that they believe people to actually have supernatural powers. But either way its slightly disappointing that people can't enjoy magic without trying to ruin it for others. Sometimes I'll watch a video and see right through an effect - but I never feel compelled to spoil it, because it might disappoint someone who is genuinely mystified and enthralled by it.

3 ♣ wrote:

magicofthemind wrote:I've put a few performance videos on YouTube (channel: mindmagic42) but I'm very conscious that if you go to any of those pages YouTube will suggest similar pages that may expose how the effect works. I've tried to avoid that as far as possible by not using the effect's official name, but I'm not sure how well that's worked. I've also been very careful in filming, and selective in what I've posted, to avoid accidental exposure - I don't think playing back any of my videos frame-by-frame would give anything away.

Barry

How do you find it with comments? Do you ever get people trying to expose your tricks there? How would you deal with it were that to happen?

All comments have to be approved. I rarely get any comments anyway!

I think youtube is as good as it is evil. If you can do a performance that is solid and no awkward angles or anything that would expose the methods it is a good resource. I had many videos on youtube back in like 2005/06 and got some good traffic from it. In the description I asked people not to discuss methods and if anyone did I would delete it usually, regardless of how close it was. I did not block the comments completely though. And I really didn't have to delete very much either. In fact, my most popular video, the only person that even came close in a comment still only said "I bet this method is very similar to a trick by this person" but didn't tip anything. So, that was kind of nice of them.

To be honest though, I don't really stress out about youtube existing and exposure on it. There is a new group out there that is exposing magical pirates. I will let them handle that business. One thing though that never gets stolen is the showmanship that is essential to magicians. I have been at a party before, and there was an armchair magician that obviously (because he also admitted it to me) stole their material. He had a trick he really liked, and I did another using the very same method and he asked me how it was done.

I smiled inside.

There is a person that has videos on youtube called andy field that give's away card decks so in theory he is trying to help the younger "toe rags" as they are called get in to magic there is no harm in learning some stuff off youtube as long as you get the showman ship right and also study them in a book to get it right.

I am not trying to start a word war just saying what I think.

Here is Paul Pacific amusing himself on You Tube with me as the incompetent cameraman. Someone gave him a present of one of those pad things which have a camera in it and was testing it out. I think I spoiled it by pointing the camera in the wrong places at the wrong moment but you can get an idea of it. We were just amusing each other and no laymen were there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Gr4uVdK8ns