talkmagic.co.uk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DrIajH ... ata_player" target="_blank

Needless to say, the link above is the video proof. RECENTLY EDITED: The 4-5 minute video of Colin's performance got deleted by its owner. Just look up the full episode

I should mention, that I don't want this discussion to be about suggestion. But, about our assumptions as to what the hell does a Penn know about Mentalism.
And if he has any opinions on suggestion.

Lets face it. We hate seeing an educated individual, such as a Penn, believe that the truth, is actually Bullsh*t.

Another, discussion I'd like to spark, is on his ( Penn's ) disgust towards mentalist. Every mentalist that performed on "Fool us", that suggested they're using pure techniques. Had they're secret revealed. I mentioned "Penn's disgust towards mentalism."

Let me explain, and the following might not make sense, unless you've studied Body language and the psychology of micros (Leakage)

Watch the video, you'll that see Penn has no idea how Colin did it. Until, after his discussion with Teller (the magical brains).
Once Penn understands, how Colin did it, you'll notice that right before Penn speaks to Colin, he (Penn) subconsciously claps.

Penn, then admits, he was apprehensive about trying to figure his performance. But the point is, do you think Penn, fears mentalism??
Taking joy in revealing/knowing a magician's secrets, is a massive form of hate. Put simply, I know that Penn is pretty passive (I don't think. From reading Penn, I kno for a fact, that he's passive aggressive, and as we all know. Passive aggressiveness, leaks, whenever and wherever, the individual can take a shot)

Trust me, when a magician can't figure, a pure drawing dupe, I performed, they become passive aggressive (another form of micro/leakage, I might add)

So, How did Penn make you feel?? What would you tell him??
Is it best that he didn't know the truth??

Penn and Teller seem to have a strong dislike of magicians who are dishonest in their dishonesty. If a magician comes out and (effectively) says or implies, "This is a magic trick," then they are OK with that. If, however, someone comes out and says or implies that they are doing something for real (not necessarily mentalism), they seem to have more of a problem.

My view is based on things I have seen them say and write over the years. I am not entirely sure their view is internally consistent. Teller wrote a nice introduction to Derren Brown's Absolute Magic, but Derren's early mentalism performances flat out denied the use of magic. There was a time gap between those two things, so maybe Teller wasn't actually that keen on Derren's early Mind Control shows.

The problem with mentalism is that it arguably has to be presented as at least potentially real to get strong response. That sort of presentation could be viewed as "dishonest dishonesty".

I'd view it as "a performer doing their job", unless you really are out to con people.

I'm not sure what your gripe is, and you clearly have an "axe to grind" but your whole post is based on assumptions. Your analysis of Penns character from a few minutes footage is a dangerous one. If you're as knowledgable as you claim to be in this area you'll know fine well your analysis is at best an educated guess. these techniques, while not without merit, are not as reliable as we have people believe.

How can you state, categorically, that Penn hates Mentalism ? Where did you get this information from ? Has Penn actually said this ?

The clip you provided doesn't necessarily mean Penn thinks that particular branch of psychology is "Bullsh*t" - it could also be taken to mean he believed it was a "Bullsh*t" explanation regarding the effect.

Regardless of whether or not Penn "takes joy in knowing/revealing magicians secrets" (another assumption of yours) the fact is that was exactly what the show was about. They revealed far more traditional style magic than they did mentalism - not sure why you're complaining.

You seem to be taking offence of the fact that Penn revealed Bellars effect. I put it to you that it was his own fault. He had a slot on a national prime-time television show, with a possible stint in Vegas up for grabs if he could fool two of the worlds top magicians - and he went on with a souped up mirage deck. Anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of magic could have worked it out. He only has himself to blame.

UndergroundSvengali wrote: Trust me, when a magician can't figure, a pure drawing dupe, I performed, they become passive aggressive (another form of micro/leakage, I might add)

From your above comment (which smacks of elitism) it would seem its not so much Penn has a problem with mentalism, but rather it is you who has a problem with magicians.



Jim

Hate is a strong word, your right. I don't know if Penn, hates Mentalism., it is a educated guess.

Hate wasnt exactly, what I thought Penn feels, towards mentalism. But, instead apprehension, apprehension that magic might slowly vanish. But I'm not sure, because he could feel contempt (he might think mentalist, don't use psychology, just Bullsh*t, in this case, Penn, has no fear.) But I claimed that Penn is passive aggressive towards mentalist, NOT that I knew his exact feelings, on mentalism. He could either feel contempt or fear, both cause Passive aggressiveness.

But this was my point, to have people talking. I simply wanted a juicy topic to post about. I haven't posted anything in a while.

Penn's just this guy, you know. This is opinion, not gospel handed down from on high. He may or may not be right. I think you should decide based upon your own evidence.

UndergroundSvengali wrote: Let me explain, and the following might not make sense, unless you've studied Body language and the psychology of micros (Leakage)

Let me explain (and the following might not make sense, unless you've studied Cognitive Psychology to degree level): IT IS BULL!!! There is little/ no evidence* (outside of anecdotes) that attests to the veracity of 'thought implantation'.

Penn is a well-known skeptic, do not confuse this with cynic. If he has any 'axe to grind' it is against pseudo-sciences such as NLP and mindreading (when presented as 'real', as opposed to 'entertainment').

* Good quality evidence, published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal/ periodical.

Tomo wrote:Penn's just this guy, you know.

I thought that was Zaphod Beeblebrox?

SpareJoker wrote:Let me explain (and the following might not make sense, unless you've studied Cognitive Psychology to degree level): IT IS BULL!!! There is little/ no evidence* (outside of anecdotes) that attests to the veracity of 'thought implantation'.

You beat me to it, SpareJoker. Magicians love to bandy around the word 'psychology' as if it elevates them above something else or it makes them sound cleverer than your favourite uncle doing magic tricks at Christmas. As someone doing his MSc in Neurospsychology, it very much annoys me. Probably more than it should.

I'm afraid 'tells', 'leaks', 'unconscious signals'......meh. The majority of it just doesn't work. You'd have to spend some time with a person to notice a pattern break, and even then its really only slightly better than chance that you get it right. Patrick Redford had an interesting body language cue with one of his tricks, and I think Derren describes a way to tell which hand the coin is in too using a body language cue but again, these really don't work on everyone and if you're up in front of Penn and Teller, and the nation, you'd better have something reliable. But is this psychology? Almost certainly not.

It is a magician's job to fool, I guess Penn has a gripe with a fellow fooler trying it on. Penn and Teller would be more than aware that mentalists don't use body language or psychology, and as such there'd be no point in trying to pretend they do.

I think Penn just applies his scepticism more uniformly that most. He,like a lot of mentalist has debunked psychics. But most mentalists don't apply this same logic to psychological tricksters.

I think perhaps that some on here may have missed the point that this was a big television show complete with writers, producers and 'scripts' like any other reality show. There are a lot of other people deciding who gets on the show and who wins and why.

Penn and Teller made a name for themselves by being the bad boys of magic. Remember it is really only magicians who don't like them. And most magicians really do like them. Back in the day when they were marketing themselves to get to the top of the magic heirarchy they perpetuated the myth that magicians hated them and they ran with it, and they were/are very successful, the proof is in their success.

All I am suggesting is be careful when you judge actors on a stage. When you meet them in real life, you may get a surprise.

UndergroundSvengali wrote: Lets face it. We hate seeing an educated individual, such as a Penn, believe that the truth, is actually Bullsh*t.

Regardless of the true nature of implanting thoughts and whether it is possible to a high degree or whatever, most if not all mentalists would not use it as it isn't reliable.
And mentalists (and magicians) do have a tad of an obligation to not lead audience members to think that something that is not based in face at all in actually true. At the very least, you have willingly lead people into changing to or cementing a viewpoint that is wrong, or at least not what actually happening. At the worst the may spend thousands of dollars on researching or on books on NLP or whatever.
Penn does not hate mentalism, he, like many rationalists dislikes the use of displaying lies as fact.
It's a bit of a contentious topic of how much lying is OK, and i definitely lie on an extreme end.
What do you guys think?

I doubt if this piece has not been presented somewhere else on this web site, but it seems pertinent to the discussion and your request for thoughts on how far it is okay to lie, just me.

http://simonsingh.net/media/articles/ma ... ho-babble/

well, needless to say...