Creativity!!!

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Creativity!!!

Postby pdjamez » Jan 10th, '06, 14:43



Note from Mods: This section was split from the original thread to preseve that topic but refer to http://www.talkmagic.co.uk/ftopic8290.php for details!

Seige, on reading your reply, I can't help but feel your commentary was just a touch elitist. Having read a number of your posts I can't believe that was your intention.

seige wrote:Creativity can not be 'invoked'... it is spontaneous to a degree.


I disagree with this statement, but I think its on a semantic level. If I replace the term creativity with the term inspiration I am in complete agreement.

At the heart of the creative process is the act of problem solving. This is carried out through technique and experience, both of which you learn through the process of creating itself. The more you create, the better you get. As you say, through the act of creation you may come upon your own invention through chance or accident. But if your not engaged in some creative process, you don't get the opportunity for inspiration to occur. In other words if your sitting in front of a blank sheet of paper waiting for inspiration, nothing is going to happen.

As Edison said Genius is 1 percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration. You need to work at your creative process, and give yourself the opportunity to play with different ideas and get your creative juices flowing. Will you be inspired, who knows, but you need to give yourself a chance.

seige wrote:Most invention happens by chance or accident, and inventors who break the mould are simply the ones who decide to get off their proverbial and do something about it.


Or as Woody Allen said Eighty percent of success is showing up.

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Postby seige » Jan 10th, '06, 15:22

OK Mr Jamez, agreed... inspiration fits far better...

And no :D I'm not elitist (I hope). But I've been involved in the creative process for near enough 20 years, so I hope that I speak with at least some experience!

I agree that the 'creative process', or the act of 'sitting down and thinking about it' is paramount to the solution. This, however, assumes there IS a solution, which would dictate that there was a problem-solving mission.

But creativity isn't always about solving problems.

My personal best ideas (talking from a graphic design point of view as well as magic) usually come along unexpected. I can sit for hours trying to force the creative juices to flow... with no avail. Then suddenly, voila—an idea just pops up.

However... I would totally disagree that 'the heart of the creative process is problem solving'. Productivity and brainstorming are problem solving. Agreed, creativity applied in problem solving leads to individual expression and originality.

But I am using the word 'creativity' and 'creative' to describe not only the processes—but also a mindset, and the 'type' of people who are creative as opposed to passive.

Creativity is defined (in my opinion) as the imaginative, original, or unique development of an inspiration. For example: you suddenly have the idea pop into your head that somehow using totally contrasting colours such as red and green can be used to great effect for an attention grabbing advert. THAT is the inspiration. Finding a way to convey that inspiration is the creativity.

However, if you're not a creative person, you'd probably never get further than the inspiration.

The dictionary definition of Creativity: The ability or power to create. Ergo, (in an elitist-sounding way) anyone who is creative has an ability which sets them apart.

OK, so do I still sound elitist? I really think I probably do. But it's not intentional, or pompous. I merely would like to stress that creativity IS truly a gift... it cannot be forced. There ARE people who are 'passive' and there are people who are 'creative'.

Please don't shout at me ! :(

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Postby ace of kev » Jan 10th, '06, 17:29

seige wrote:OK Mr Jamez, agreed... inspiration fits far better...

And no :D I'm not elitist (I hope). But I've been involved in the creative process for near enough 20 years, so I hope that I speak with at least some experience!

I agree that the 'creative process', or the act of 'sitting down and thinking about it' is paramount to the solution. This, however, assumes there IS a solution, which would dictate that there was a problem-solving mission.

But creativity isn't always about solving problems.

My personal best ideas (talking from a graphic design point of view as well as magic) usually come along unexpected. I can sit for hours trying to force the creative juices to flow... with no avail. Then suddenly, voila—an idea just pops up.

However... I would totally disagree that 'the heart of the creative process is problem solving'. Productivity and brainstorming are problem solving. Agreed, creativity applied in problem solving leads to individual expression and originality.

But I am using the word 'creativity' and 'creative' to describe not only the processes—but also a mindset, and the 'type' of people who are creative as opposed to passive.

Creativity is defined (in my opinion) as the imaginative, original, or unique development of an inspiration. For example: you suddenly have the idea pop into your head that somehow using totally contrasting colours such as red and green can be used to great effect for an attention grabbing advert. THAT is the inspiration. Finding a way to convey that inspiration is the creativity.

However, if you're not a creative person, you'd probably never get further than the inspiration.

The dictionary definition of Creativity: The ability or power to create. Ergo, (in an elitist-sounding way) anyone who is creative has an ability which sets them apart.

OK, so do I still sound elitist? I really think I probably do. But it's not intentional, or pompous. I merely would like to stress that creativity IS truly a gift... it cannot be forced. There ARE people who are 'passive' and there are people who are 'creative'.

Please don't shout at me ! :(


I know what you mean, and Jay Sankey is one of these people :D

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Postby vic_vdb » Jan 10th, '06, 19:39

Sone of the patents that I have been involved in have gone along the lines, this is what is happeniong/looks like it happens/should be happening - now how do I do that:

Easier,

Quicker,

Cheaper,

Differently - this is where inspiration comes from. Edison said in an article reprinted in Scientific American some time ago that he saw what was happening (voice makes noise, ears hear noise, decode and enjoy) and set about ways of capturing or reproducing the cause of the effect he sought!

I loved that - reproducing the cause of the effect, sounds like inventing for magicians to me (as well as sad solder-splattered nerds like what I was),

What a great topic and with KB in the relationship you have a good magical mentor to boot (Anyone who can visit his shop will find him absolutely great value),

Vic

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Postby pdjamez » Jan 11th, '06, 11:41

seige wrote:Please don't shout at me ! :


Seige, I wouldn't even dare. As I said in my previous post, I didn't think you were being elitist, it just read that way. We both have extensive experience actively working in creative environments; whats interesting is that we take different approaches to the creative process. As I think I previously noted, there are any number of different approaches. From your commentary I am sure that we can both agree that no matter the approach what is important is that you get off your rear end and do something.

seige wrote:I agree that the 'creative process', or the act of 'sitting down and thinking about it' is paramount to the solution. This, however, assumes there IS a solution, which would dictate that there was a problem-solving mission.


In the approach I mentioned in my previous post, the goal is actually less important than you would think. Not having that initial inspiration often stops people from getting creative (problem solving in my parlance). By choosing a goal it will start you on the path: but lets be clear often you'll get sidetracked onto something more interesting as you change tack or inspiration hits you along the way. I'm simply saying, dont let the blank piece of paper stop you.

For example, for the last 6 months I have been focussing on creating outs for my card routines. So far I have created 2 routines, but I have also created 2 effects which are not outs. For me at least, it is not the goal, but the journey which is important. After rereading that, I think a career in self help manuals beckons.

seige wrote:Creativity is defined (in my opinion) as the imaginative, original, or unique development of an inspiration. For example: you suddenly have the idea pop into your head that somehow using totally contrasting colours such as red and green can be used to great effect for an attention grabbing advert. THAT is the inspiration. Finding a way to convey that inspiration is the creativity.


Mmmmm......
Problem: How do I make this an attention grabbing advert.
Solution: Use contrasting red and green colours.

We're looking at different sides of the same wall. I really don't think we're disagreeing here, its a semantics argument which is only natural considering we have different approaches.

seige wrote:The dictionary definition of Creativity: The ability or power to create. Ergo, (in an elitist-sounding way) anyone who is creative has an ability which sets them apart.


I do think your logic is a little flawed here. For your conclusion to make sense, you must assume that not everyone can be creative, otherwise its a truism. I prefer the following definition: Characterized by originality and expressiveness.

I believe that everyone has the ability to be original and expressive. Whether they can be bothered to try is a choice and whether their output is any good is a matter of taste. It is however the responsibility of this group to mentor anyone who is trying. And boy do I need mentoring....

seige wrote:OK, so do I still sound elitist? I really think I probably do. But it's not intentional, or pompous. I merely would like to stress that creativity IS truly a gift... it cannot be forced. There ARE people who are 'passive' and there are people who are 'creative'.


Seige, I was about to write some commentary on the statement above, but after some consideration I will resist as we may end up entering into a religous war, which neither side can win. Our creative belief systems are only very slighty different, so can I suggest we agree to disagree, otherwise we'll spend eternity kicking each other.

Oh, and of course you dont sound pompous, thats my job.

EDIT: Fingers crossed this doesn't affect my NUMS registration.

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Postby seige » Jan 11th, '06, 12:46

Well, that's put me in my place then!

I think you are right that we are both arguing the same point from a different angle.

But I do still firmly believe that some people just aren't born creative, and they don't have the drive to conjour it up either. Everyone has the ABILITY to create, but some choose to be passive.

I can qualify this twice:

1. I spent a while teaching Art and Design at a secondary school after I'd left university (bearing in mind this was 10 years ago—before kids had TOTALLY lost respect) and I was amazed at how many of them actually showed signs of being very creative, but who in reality were far happier to hold it back.
I couldn't quite work this out, but the assessment given to me by an experienced art teacher whom I was working alongside was that it is perfectly natural that some people act this way.
Creative people exercise their minds, athletic types exercise their bodies—each pushes themselves to the limits of their own potential. Creative types are flexible and adaptive to situations in which they are required or desire to solve problems, and generally are motivated by their innovative thoughts. Their originality comes from their own desire to pursue their ideas and develop them.
A creative type will never stop developing an idea—they will pursue several different approaches before feeling content. Even then, they will probably feel they could have done better.

A passive person, on the other hand, will just answer the question/present a design and that's good enough. They will exercise little effort, and more often than not will give up altogether.

Is it elitist to pigeonhole people as 'creative' or 'passive'??? I don't think it is, no.

2. A very good friend of mine is a singer/guitarist/producer/studio operator. His virtuoso standard of guitar playing is comparable to Jeff Beck, Hendrix, Steve Vai etc. He's extremely fluent, and I would deem him as very creative.
We often have chats about 'the creative process', and his creativity isn't a problem solving exercise, it's simply derived from passion.
He also gives guitar lessons. It seems that many kids and adults today are getting into electric guitar. And his view is that there are THREE types of person whom he encounters...

A: The technically excellent - can play note-for-note perfect emulations of just about every classic guitar riff or chord, but has no drive, motivation or skill to do anything else

B: The No-Hoper - can't grasp the simplest concepts, can't be bothered to learn how the guitar works, and can't really play the thing at all

C: The true creative - whether or not they can PLAY the guitar, they have thoughts, ideas, motivation and inspiration. They experiment, they persist, they have fluency.

Bottom line???
EVERYBODY has creativity in them. But just like a muscle, unless you access, exercise and stimulate it, it just remains 'functional' rather than 'exceptional'. Sure enough, the root components of creativity such as inspiration, motivation, perserverance and originality are present at some level in everyone.

I've really enjoyed this discussion. I am so much of the thinking that Mr Jamez and meself are totally on the same wavelength.

I fear that my interpretation of the WORD 'creative' may conflict, but I am totally and utterly respectful of any objective discussion which doesn't lead to 'I'm right, you're not' type scenarios. And this is a great example of such a 'debate'.

I am only a smidge over 33, and I know I'm always still learning. And it's a pleasure to take part in such an intelligent, provocative and deep discussion on this forum—albeit anywhere. Something which I've missed here dearly.

It is very sobering and humbling when people extend your knowledge or help you think deeper, but that is how I feel today.

Another noteworthy characteristic of creative people is their excitement over almost any problem or phenomenon that puzzles or mystifies. Many things taken for granted by others are a challenge for creative people. In this sense, they are intellectually restless, not satisfied with what is accepted, established or known -- constantly wondering how things could or might be and always ready to consider and visualize new possibilities. They feel that it's necessary to improve upon, or add to, existing realities.

Charles Goodyear, who wasn't a scientist, is generally credited for discovering ways to rid rubber of its stickiness and odor and for improving its strength and resiliency. Chemists were of no help to him, and he plodded on alone and maintained his labors out of sheer excitement.

Creative people display originality in their thinking. Since their thought processes aren't really jammed with stereotypes, they can reach out beyond the ordinary to think of more unusual and unique solutions to problems. Originality expresses itself also in their ability to dissect firmly structured and established systems to create a new combination or a new system of relationships.

Originality doesn't always mean something radically new. Often, it involves finding a new use for an existing product. For example, when baking soda sales plummeted because people were baking fewer cookies, Church & Dwight Co. came up with a marketing innovation. As a result, its Arm & Hammer baking soda is now used to deodorize refrigerators and carpets.

Creative people often become lost in playing with ideas, forms, materials, relationships and concepts. These elements can be shaped into all kinds of unlikely and imaginative combinations. Experience has taught them that this apparently purposeless trying out and toying with possibilities strengthens at the same time as it loosens their imaginative powers. Significant creative ideas often emerge out of such a letting-go exercise.

Writer Henry David Thoreau had this playful imagining in mind when he wrote, "If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them."

A lighthearted spirit of play provides freedom from the habits, conditions and conventions that impede the novel idea. By putting the judicial censor of their conscious minds to sleep, so to speak, creative people can pass over the established order and set the stage for novel ideas and solutions.

Written by Eugene Raudsepp
A frequent contributor to the National Business Employment Weekly from 1984 to 1995, publishing more than 50 articles in the magazine. As president of Princeton Creative Research Inc., a consulting firm in Princeton, N.J., he wrote 16 books and more than 700 articles for publications around the world.


Chris[/quote]

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Postby pdjamez » Jan 11th, '06, 14:42

pdjamez wrote:Chris,
Thank you for taking my comments as they were intended. I look forward to further discussion.


Thought I'd move my final comment across for completeness sake, see above.

EDIT: I know this reply seems a little short, but since we both agree to disagree over our key point, I doubt anymore than that would be constructive. :)

Last edited by pdjamez on Jan 11th, '06, 20:35, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Tomo » Jan 11th, '06, 17:57

<moved at Mandrake's suggestion>

I can't claim that my work is anything like great literature or that my magic is any good, but I make a small living from the first and people say they like the second. The way I approach the creative process (after worrying about paying the mortgage, that is!) is generally to find something unexpected and think "that's odd". From there I dig both down to find out about it and also around it to see what it's connected to, and what it has in common with other things. I start thinking in an open-ended way, making connections and leaps of faith, trying to figure out what it could all mean; whether it's a good thing, or a bad thing or a cool or frightening thing, etc. From that, I start to extract a workable angle and begin chipping away at a pitch.

One of my first published pieces (for PC Pro as it happens) came from a "that's odd" moment about AI in computer games. Apart from the cool technology, it became a piece about whether creating games that learn to beat the player means that there's no longer a clear, bankable product release plan. It used to be that software houses could release new titles regularly and plan ahead, knowing that players were coming to the end of the previous one. I discovered that, by giving players more intelligent baddies to shoot, they were taking so long to finish a game, and that the makers were getting into serious financial difficulties. It certainly paid the mortgage for a couple of months!

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Postby pdjamez » Jan 12th, '06, 00:52

Tomo wrote:The way I approach the creative process (after worrying about paying the mortgage, that is!) is generally to find something unexpected and think "that's odd". From there I dig both down to find out about it and also around it to see what it's connected to, and what it has in common with other things. I start thinking in an open-ended way, making connections and leaps of faith, trying to figure out what it could all mean; whether it's a good thing, or a bad thing or a cool or frightening thing, etc. From that, I start to extract a workable angle and begin chipping away at a pitch.


Tomo I think your experience will be fairly common, although the strategies employed may differ. I find it very difficult to explain how I create, specifically how I move from one thought, off onto a complete tangent. How does my brain make a link from this to that, when they are clearly unrelated. I also enjoy those little accidents, which come few and far between but can open up real possibilities. When you slip up on an sleight or hit the wrong key, whatever... I also tend to work on multiple things at once. If I hit a dead end I just put it down and pick something else up. I usually pick it up later, if I don't then it probably wasn't going anywhere anyway. It also helps with cross over between effects, if you keep multiple things at the back of your head (in my case anyway).

Thats the reason I try to keep good records. Plus it was advice from Dai Vernon, and he knew a thing or two. He once said he used to just write the name of an effect along with a five star rating. Unfortunately when he came to look at it year later, he couldn't remember the effect, but he knew it was a good one. If in my lifetime I manage to create just one effect which is up to Vernons two star standard, I certainly don't want to lose it.

For me its really just a form of play, and its a process I enjoy greatly. It doesnt matter whether I am any good at it or not, but I do feel that I get better at it as I learn more. One thing that I've found useful, is playing with my own children. If you want a lesson on how to spark your imagination, half an hour with a four year old will do it. Makes sense really, if magic is about using peoples assumptions against them, then learn from someone with no preconceptions what so ever. The odd thing is that even in freeform play, they still have rules. It just takes you a long time to work out what they are.

Since we've thrashed out the issue of kicking off the creative process to death (or at least near death), I would be interested in learning from others what strategies they employ during the creative process itself. Its an area where I really think others input would be helpful.

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Postby pdjamez » Jan 12th, '06, 00:59

I've just realised I'm the author of this thread. Thats a bit arbitary isnt it. I was saving my first thread for when I had something really important to say. :wink:

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Re: Creativity!!!

Postby Tomo » Jan 13th, '06, 12:40

pdjamez wrote:As Edison said Genius is 1 percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration. You need to work at your creative process, and give yourself the opportunity to play with different ideas and get your creative juices flowing. Will you be inspired, who knows, but you need to give yourself a chance.

The new issue of Computer Shopper (March 2006) should be out today. On page 225 here's a box out that talks about the various ways in which creativity has worked for people like Edison, Leonardo, Watt and Dyson.

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