talkmagic.co.uk

First - FlipBack is speaking for himself only, so you can't put his comments as a sweeping generalization.

Seige wrote a VERY poignant response to this - but at no time did he come out and say "revealing secrets helps magic". If you read his comments more carefully, he was saying that it helped people to rethink their old ideas - to strive to improve and advance the art of magic, rather than rely upon the old, sometimes stale and outdated material magicians have used in the past.

The other two quotes are mine, and I would happily remind you, for the third time - at no point did I say "revealing secrets helps magic".

Yes, the masked magician show gave magic a boost into the public realm. Can you deny this? Magic wasn't shown on television all that much (save a few Copperfield specials years before in the US). The debut of this series brought it back into the spotlight. People were talking about it again. Sure, in some regards it hurt (I refer you back to Seiges' comments) but overall, the positive effect on the resurgence of magic on TV and other entertainment outlets was even stronger than the negative impact. Can you deny this? No. But you also can't get "revealing secrets helps magic" from this quote.

The second quote is another fact. The code of silence has been "broken" all throughout history. You took one line of my comment, not the entire comment. As such, the meaning of the statement is entirely lost. I was speaking in reference to someone saying that online magic shops could be seen as breaking the magicians' code. To point out that this isn't true, I commented on how Dai Vernon "broke" the code to teach Larry Jennings. Obviously, if you paid attention to what I was saying, you'd know I meant that these people aren't exposing, they're passing on the traditions and the art.

Having said that, at no time does that even remotely equate to "revealing secrets helps magic".

Going back to Flipback for a second. While I don't completely agree with his stance on the issue, he also didn't say that revealing secrets was good for magic. He just said as long as they didn't show what HE was doing, he didn't care.

It is annoying to have tricks ruined because someone "saw it on TV" but I suppose the only upside is that magicians (not so much close up magicians but definitely stage magicians) have to come up with new ways of performing old tricks. For example, the old Houdini Metamorphosis trick was shown on TV once, but when David Copperfield elevates the shroud that will become his assitant, and stands on a clear stage, people can't say "Oh she got out of the box and now shes waiting behind him to swap places" because obviously you can see that's not going on.

I accept both sides of the arguments as valid points but I will just say this...

People who want to make money by ruining a very fine and ancient tradition are just plain sad.
And people who can't be arsed to do tricks, but just want to be able to say "I know how that's done" are also very sad.

And in my opinion, if someone says "I know how that's done" I hand them the deck/coin/whatever and say "Well go on then". Normally they feel silly enough to let you get on with your trick without ruining it, or if they attempt it, keep saying things like "I saw that" and "I know how thats done" and making a groaning noise and saying "Christ. That was on TV just LAST WEEK! Can't you do something more original?!"

Hi Guys

I think this will be good for all magicians too come up with new illusions to astound viewers.

all my searching has been in vain. i cannot find a copy of the masked magician.

does anyone know where i can see it?

You can probably get the dvd on amazon.com or something like that.

Doh! how silly of me not to check there, I only looked on the .co.uk site. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/630505 ... ance&n=130
there's even an amazon review that explains how to turn a woman into a tiger (definately a joke there somewhere)

It’s risibly disingenuous for the Masked M to say he’s revealing secrets to ‘move magic on’ or ‘encourage innovation’ or some such piffle: he’s doing it for the money that the TV producers put in his pocket. Blaine (ambivalent as I may feel about him) promoted magic, and gave it a new, exciting and attractive public image. D Brown has done the same thing, in a different way. If the Masked M really intended to be a crisp wind sweeping fresh and exhilarating through the world, then he would have come up with interesting and original new presentations or ways of thinking. He didn’t. He simply said, ‘This is how you do it: a Swami gimmick,’ stuffed the cash in his wallet, and then - nauseously, if you ask me - turned his soulful eyes to camera and claimed he did it because he cared so much about magic. It may, coincidentally have encouraged some magicians to do new things, but that wasn’t his aim, and - as I said above - if it were, then the way to do it would have been to provide an inspiring example, not to burn somebody’s house down then wink, ‘I trust you’ll redecorate better now.’

What’s also worth mentioning is that new effects and presentations can be created, but truly new methods are rare and precious. There’s that lovely thing where a youngster told Devant that he knew over three hundred tricks. ‘Really?’ replied DD. ‘I know about eight.’ If you saw the effect Brown did with Simon Pegg, then that’s a good example of taking a frequently seen thing, cleverly turning it on its head, and coming up with something that looks brilliant, original and stunning. There might well be a great way to use a Swami in the same fashion, but it’s buggered if the audience all know about a Swami anyway. I think that this is where Penn & Teller differ - they tend to reveal how a very specific effect (that they created themselves) is done. It doesn’t create widespread damage. I genuinely sympathise with greedoniz, but, as a general thing, everyone knowing how the Cig Ash trick is done kills the Cig Ash trick - how many, varied, wonderful (and rubbish, yes - not the point) tricks are killed if everyone knows the DL?

I'm certainly not in favour of revealing effects to make a few quid, but i do think there's a place for doing to move magic along a little...

...I'm sure there was outcry amongst some magicians when the royal road first came out...

...as ever, if revelations are done for the greater good, then sometimes its healthy to clear the decks as it were...

...its strange though, you dont get musicians saying you shouldnt print the guitar tablature for say jimi hendrix or rory gallacher material 'cos it'll weaken the effect the music has...

anyway, masked magician only wears that mask 'cos it would reveal his leech-like face...bet he looks like kendo nakasaki...

abraxus wrote:I'm sure there was outcry amongst some magicians when the royal road first came out...

It's a subtle line, yes, but I think we know it when we see it: as a previous poster mentioned, there's a difference between intending to pass on magic to other enthusiasts and simply chucking it out at everyone for a quick buck (or because you think it makes you seem clever, incidentally).

abraxus wrote:its strange though, you dont get musicians saying you shouldnt print the guitar tablature for say jimi hendrix or rory gallacher material 'cos it'll weaken the effect the music has...

That's because Rory Gallacher can continue to perform 'Brute Force and Ignorance' even if the audience knows all the chords - apples and oranges. However, there is a pertinent thing here, which returns to what I said above. New, fresh and exciting movements in music don't come from someone with no originality scratching everyone's CDs then sitting back smuggly saying, 'Go now! I have forced you to create!' The innovation comes from a band appearing that's fantastic and inspires the people who listen. Don't you think?

...and also the difference in my mind between say eric clapton and hendrix..it's all about the delivery and the passion...(off topic - but clapton should of hung up his guitar after Blind Faith)...

alot of corinda's stuff has been adapted over the years and performed differently by many many mentalists...(whats the plural of mentalists? mentali?)..

but the basics stay the same...its all about the emotional context and content...

masked magician though is obviously just a spawny-minded fool, there's a huge gap between what he does and when penn and teller used to show you how some stage illusion worked...at least with p&t it kinda sparked your imagination; whilst the masked muppet just makes most people go "oh - is that it? im disapointed..."

"a magician guards an empty box" afterall...

Sorry folks but here it is.
This guy is scum.
I had a chap at work, who knows I'm a magician, ask if I owned a Raven, a bloody Raven. He thought it was a bird 'til mass media masked pratt turned up.
I saw his show and couldn't believe how much damage he did in such a short space of time.

An example of keeping secrets. I did a simple effect for some folks in a bar expecting someone to spot it { then I could go 'but this is magic' with an astounding effect} everyone was amazed at what i as a magician thought was obvious{it really was blatantly silly} but they were wowed.
In ending. I vote we hang him. nuff said

there are obviously very mixed views about these kinds of shows. I see it from both sides of the coin:

Heads is that it does ruin the tricks, and if anyone watching saw a magician perform the trick they could just spoil it for everyone and say 'oh, the gun is fake and it has a fake bullet, blah blah blah with wires and stuff - i saw it on that TV show with the masked guy', which would spoil that trick forever for everyone who saw the TV show.

However, Tails, magicians who do reveal tricks enspire other magicians - eg, the masked guy revealed how to do the rabbit out of the hat trick once, and i thought 'oh, i will never be able to see that trick again without being amazed' then, low and behold, i see adam and paul on Channel 4 do 'the rabbit out of the hat' but using a doctors table and a woman, its the same basic trick, but with a totally new twist, and its very hard to even try to figure out - SO, people kind of owe new tricks, to old tricks being discovered!

Also (sorry to rant and rave :s) but with the (D/L) you often get people saying 'oh he did it this way *then expalin how they think you did it*' - simply hand them the deck of cards / coin / whatever trick you use and ask them to do it - very often they will back down, or try to do it and fail and look like a total fool in front of a crowd of people - its happened to me before, and its VERY funny when the crowd turns to them and basically boo's them out of the club / off the stage because they cannot perform the trick ANYWHERE near as good as you - it then makes the audience respect you so much more, as they then fully understand the time and effort that you have put into preparing the tricks / entire show / particular illusion

*PHEW* feels good to rant like that

I used to watch that, i regret it now as i don't see the 'wow' factor of the trick if it is performed again as i know how it's done.

It depends on the person. I know how the raven is used but it still surprises me when used correctly/differently and not just doing the same "vanish a coin from the top of someones hand" trick. I actually enjoy figuring out how tricks are done.. I find that it can be like a puzzle and I challenge myself to work it out. I do some research and use what knowledge I already know to try and work it out.. and a lot of the time, even after working it out, I still enjoy the trick.

If you know how neo dodges bullets in The Matrix, it doesnt take away the "wow" factor does it? It still LOOKS good, regardless of how its done. I see magic the same way.

I think these kind of shows are devastating for the art of magic. The whole idea about magic is mystery and unsolved questions - these shows destroy those elements.