talkmagic.co.uk

Hi everyone,
Here’s something that I’ve been thinking about discussing for a while now. I’ve been attending a local Magic Club for just under a year. During this time I’ve witnessed (and been part of) some great discussions where people discuss ideas, routines and seek the help of others – in those free moments before and after guest speakers. Occasionally new items are brought along to the club and shown informally to other members – this is great as it has occasionally been an item I’ve been interested in, but haven’t had the chance to see a demo at a shop. However, some members then go on to show how the effect is created. I’ve even noticed some of the members saying after a demo by a fellow member – “that’s great – now show us how it works”.

What are your views on this? To me, I feel this is wrong. Those people don’t own the rights to those secrets and even in a magic club, they should not be freely divulged. Now I know that in those quiet moments at clubs / conventions when old friends get together, secrets are shared and ideas discussed – but I’ve always assumed that these have either been handed down by mentors or are their own creations.

I performed a great mentalism routine as part of my audition to the club – one that genuinely fooled many of the members. To which I largely owe the creators of ____________. I was asked how on earth I did it – but this put me in an awkward position. Being a recent guest member and not knowing how magic clubs ‘work’ and the etiquette that is part of their fabric, I wondered if I should be discussing the methods with them, I also wanted to make a good impression and make friends with them, so didn’t want to appear rude. However, I decided that the secrets weren’t mine to disclose and so I thanked them for their kind words, but added that unfortunately I couldn’t take the credit for it – therefore couldn’t disclose the method. If they did want to purchase the routine I could point them in the direction of a website that sold it (also I didn’t want to deflate the great reaction that I had just worked to create!). I did wonder on the way home if that was a test and part of the audition – but I’ve since witnessed members disclosing methods - so I’m not so sure!

Any thoughts?

Must get back to work

Not being a member of a magic club myself, I don't know what the etiquete is, but I thought the whole idea of such a club was to share magic and techniques with others?

Don't lesser magicians get taught by advanced magicians, or what is the point of joining a club?

Well, TM is kind of an online magic club and we do not divulge secrets. We help each other with the things that we know how to do.

I am not a member of a club either, but I would not tell them secrets if they asked as I had to pay for them. Why should they get them for free?

I'd like to chime in on this one.

First, each member of the club pays dues, unlike this forum. Club members also pay additional fees to attend lectures by professional magicans. During regular club meetings some discussion revolve around perfecting trick which may indirectly or directly expose the secrets. At lectures, the professional magician actually goes through the methods with attendees and then afterward, generally sells additional items/props that work with the methods discussed. This is the point of the lecture, to learn methods from a professional magican and have an opportunity to purchase the props to perform them.

Secondly, I tend to agree with leighton on this point. Part of being a paying member of a magic club is to share techiques and methods with more experienced magicans. Now of course, it is not a free for all exposure meeting. It is a controlled discussion as to how to progress in terms of already accumulated knowledge as well as learning and improving on methods and techniques.

When demonstrating a trick to the club, the person demonstrating makes it clear from the beginning that he will or will not discuss the methods to accomplish the trick. But, if he will not, it is expected that he/she provide information as to how to find/purchase that knowledge. Just as Last Deck on the Left did. I do not think this is unreasonable.

At the end of the day, it will be the club's leadership which sets the tone and the rules for lines between exposure and learning. I feel it is beneficial to share knowledge with members who have shown not only interest to learn but members who have displayed the commitment to practicing the art.

The members of the club I attend generally do "expose" a simple trick or two to new members or guests, as well as perform the tricks and discuss simple techniques, misdirection etc. This may be viewed as exposure to some, but again, what is the point if a newbee doesn't leave with something to work on or to motivate him/her for more learning or to return to show what he/she has practiced?

As the members are more comfortable with each other and know each others' level of knowledge, then more indepth information is shared and exchanged so that the knowledge of the peer group is heightend.

Just my thoughts.

Archimage

I want to be a member of a club like archimage goes to!

I belong to an IBM ring and we do lectures there. We pick out a trick and take turns explaining it in front of everyone that attends. I really don't think it's a big deal. If a magician is doing a lecture and uses a french drop in the course of his routine is it alright for him to expose THE METHOD since he did not invent the french drop. I like the idea of promoting magic. Whenever I do a lecture I always name the inventor and tell them what the name of the video or book is. I have actually had people buy these books and/or dvd's that they wouldn't buy. Just my opinion.

Exactly. A balance must be sought. If everyone screams :exposure : at a DL or a pass, newbies will quickly be turned off the art and you'll end up with an elitist club. People go to learn, so you must either point them in the right direction or show them the shop.

As for owning the rights to secrets, who owns the DL? The classic force? Even the Elmsley count is sold by a dozen mages, I'm sure Mr Elmsley doesn't get a cut off every DVD. Common sense must be used and you choose what kind of club you want - one fostering learning, or one where every question is answered with 'go buy this DVD'.

Look at it this way. I learned to drive from my instructor. Would you have a problem with me teaching someone else to drive? Magic is slightly different, but you can't paint every piece of information as evil.

I think you guys are right on. Balance is the key to everything we do. I also agree that fostering a learning environment is the primary goal.

Again, looking at a specific person's knowledge level and interest should tell you what things you should or should not reveal. Give him too much information and he is either overloaded or becomes a taker, but not a giver.

Give him a little information, he comes back with what he's learned and practiced and then he shows you what he has learned and will show others at his peer level, thereby teaching. Teaching in my opinion is the best way to learn because you have to know so much more to adequately teach.

Lastly, I tend to use the male pronoun "he" in writing. This is meant for clarity and brevity, not meant to offend any female magicans out there!

Archimage

I'm in a magic club in my university where they teach us how to do the sleights and stuff. Basically, it's like an extra class on learning how to do these magic tricks to become magicians ourselves.

Anyways, just depends on what the club does. Some teach, some only show. If the magic club you're in is a show only, then how the people are saying, now teach us, it's wrong. Disrespectful. But if it is a teach club like mine, it's only right to teach them.

In the end, the way they ask it could be disrespectul too.

Within the confines of a magic society / club where members have had to demonstrate their skills through audition to gain membership, I see no problem with this.

Whilst most are interested in learning how something new is done, I think that most will then either buy it or decide that it doesn't fit into their own routine or style of magic.

I've been show how dozens of tricks work but haven't had the slightest inclination to start making them. If there's something in particular that I like then I will go out afterwards and buy it. I also think that most do the same.

At the club i have just joined the nights have themes...eg cards - closeup - mentalism..
And most do a routine.....and its normally upto the individual if they disclose the method...

Most stuff thats done are not packet tricks....but tricks using standard sleights and normally made up by the performer.

When in a room surrounded by like minded magicians they usually no how you did it ....

And the discussions about the method can help you improve.

Personally i think it’s acceptable to divulge all secrets to members of the magic club you are not someone who has just walked off the street you are a member who has a genuine interest in magic and if you can’t share your methods openly with other members and how its perform i see it as pointless being there. divulging it is only one small part of it after that it will take many hours to master and if the person used something like a Raven, Bat, M5, to perform it then what does it matter if they know how it is done because in order for them to perform it they are still going to need to go and purchase the product in order to perform the same trick.

Last card, I tip my hat to you Sir.
A difficult situation handled perfectly.
x

Hi everyone,

Many thanks for these great responses. I haven't logged on for a few days. But your comments have been very helpful. I think that I will just continue to keep other peoples secrets to myself, but offer advice and tips where I can.

It would be nice to eventually be able to pass on ideas and effects that I've created myself - however I'm not quite there yet!
Cheers!