talkmagic.co.uk

I'm a cynical, bitter and twisted skeptic. I don't believe in God. I don't believe in elves or fairies. I don't believe in magic. I don't believe in the supernatural and I don't believe in mind-reading.

I recently chatted with a very dear friend of mine who does amateur Tarot readings for her friends, and I pretty much told her it was all utter charlatanism, bunk, tosh, Barnum statements, lucky guesses, cold reading, inside knowledge, psychology, sociology, misdirection and piddle.

This offended her. She told me to her it was real. She's not misleading people.

So I'm asking for replies from the members of this forum who REALLY KNOW what they're talking about. I'm referring to the Tomos and the magicwands and the Lewises.

I am convinced there is nothing to Tarot that is other worldly, or mystic, or spooky - it's just a learned technique to impress people in a way that gives them little choice to conclude anything other than it's "real".

Discuss.

When it comes to beliefs, nobody can legislate (I don't mean that in its legal sense) for what ideas or thoughts are held by various people. Some people believe fervently in a higher diety - God , Buddah, Allah and so on (like yourself, I don't), Organised Religion has been at the heart of most wars and military conflicts since time immemorial.

Some people believe Derek Acorah and James Van Praagh can talk to the dead. Some people believe that Derren Brown can read minds. If your friend believes in the power of the Tarot, accommodate that even though you KNOW it's bunkum. You don't have to buy into it, just accommodate it.

Please, please do NOT seek what people call the "truth" because you will end up in a non-gimmicked strait-jacket

I agree with most of your beliefs except one; I think thought reading is very possible. It's not supernatural and it's not as specific as TV would have you believe, but there are methods of increasing one's perceptions to be able to tell what someone is thinking of. Muscle reading is a basic level of this, but the non contact methods are, despite being very secular, real thought reading.

The problem with saying you don't believe in the supernatural is that if the phenomenon were real, it would cease to be 'super'-natural. Such is the case with psychophysiological techniques of discerning thoughts.

You (meaning what I tell myself a lot) have to keep in mind that peoples' perceptions of what is real is generally very personal. One man's bunk is another man's reality. And it's tough to explain, but I can understand how hard it is to change one's perspective to fit others'.


Brace yourself for an essay by Craig Browning- I'm expecting it any minute now...

todays supernatural is tomorows science.

ok so we don't have an accurate way to recored and process brainwaves to the extent that we can read thoughts and dreams, but tis scientificly possible because we are a biochemical entity.

our brains just like any radio reciever can pick up stray radio waves, some are more sensitive than others (technicly our brains are classified as trancivers).
theres enough evidence that we can recieve impressions from others and with training can be quite accurate, psychic science is still in its infancy but just like surgery time will heal all wounds.

queen of clubs wrote:I'm a cynical, bitter and twisted skeptic. I don't believe in God. I don't believe in elves or fairies. I don't believe in magic. I don't believe in the supernatural and I don't believe in mind-reading...

That pretty much sums me up, too. Having said that, I do believe that things like mind-reading and ESP might be the next rung on the ladder of human evolution. That's my personal belief.

Indeed, but I reckon it's safe to say there isn't a scientific method of predicting what will happen in someone's future by turning over randomly mixed bits of card with pretty pictures on. A word to the wise though Queenie, it's best to just smile sweetly and bare it when someone mentions they do readings or reiki or whatever. Basically belief is a weird quirk of our psychological make up and logic has no sway against it, especially with friends you're liable to get into real trouble if you question it.

i am an atheist, and a skeptic..but at the same time, i enjoy the idea of the what if's...makes life seem less rigid and solid...

we give up the concept of everlasting life, and being made whole, and in some respects that can make us quite unforgiving and cold at the same time...not always, but..well...

let me waffle before i give my answer to your question...some have read this many times so apologies...

queenie - imagine you are a scientist, in the 1700s. you are convinced that atoms exist. You cant scientifically prove it, you poo-poo it for ages, but still, something niggles away at you saying "atoms though..they've gotta exist havent they..."..so youtell your science friends..they mock and laugh and through you out of their dungeons and dragons club...

many, many years later - people discover how to "see" atoms, and are proven to exist...

though you're dead, you're not so silly now!

even to believe in nothing, is still a belief within itself...

i see nothing wrong in holding beliefs, as long as they dont interfer with anyone elses life...which is often not the case...but ideologically thats what i believe...

some of my extremist atheist friends, i can picture them going to some poor sod in a cancer ward and whispering to them "hey, you know god doesnt exist right..pointless praying now..."

whatever gets you through the night i say...

tarot - finally! did you know playing cards begat tarot? boring but true..

ever looked at a piece of art, and "gotten something" out of it? it's touched you, or you thought it was just fantastic and beautiful?

well....i could look at the same piece of work and think its rubbish and pointless...

if i were to show you 3 tarot cards, ask you to not see the names of the cards, but purely as a giant picture in total, what does it describe and show? how does it make you feel in your situation right now?

it could be seen as a method of self-exploration via art in some sense...

i dont believe that The Tower means that something terrible is going to happen, or a belief or feelings will go away...but it could suggest that something is about to change very quickly and emotions will run high...good or bad...

i dont believe that the tarot is set in stone, and will definately tell you everything...i think its a fascinating way of exploring a problem or question you may have, that allows you to step away from it in some ways...

you could humour me too - and pick three actors/actresses that you are going to have dinner with at the same time, and pm me them...

i dont think tarot is done to impress people...

i have no problem with the tarot as a tool for self-exploration, for giving solid 100% true advice, I'm against it...the answers will always be within the person visiting the tarot reader, just the same as the answers will always be within the person visiting a counsellor...

how you arrive at the right thing to do for YOU is kinda immaterial...

did you know there's been case studies of people with similar problems, one set going to a psychoanalysist, another lot talking it through with friends...both had the same success rate...wierd innit...

long rambling thoughts over...

by the way, if you dont believe in magic or wonder, how do you frame your..well...magic?

May I ask why you ask for someone who "knows what they're talking about" Queenie? I don't have to talk to a scientologist to know what I think about all that...!

The difficulty I think is that even people who do tarot and are quite aware that they are "cold reading" to some degree, they may still believe it to be true. Same with any kind of reading or prediction.

For instance, the DVD talked about elsewhere, "Draw Me a Tree." I don't really think there's any truth in that in terms of it's accuracy or any real link to one's subconscious, but I'm still happy to learn the system and use it for entertainment. However, I don't know what Rudy Hunter thinks about it - my guess would be he believes in it, to some extent at least. Indeed, the "system" as taught is not one of cold reading, it's of what these drawings are supposed to mean.

Same with tarot. When and if people learn it, I suppose it's their choice whether they learn it as "X card suggests Y, which could mean Z for that person..." or "this is the X card, so it's your chance to cold read in the subject of Y, perhaps suggesting Z to that person."

In conclusion, you can (I suspect) cold read with tarot without even knowing it, and in this case, you are probably impressed with the results alongside your client which will make you into a believer in either the cards or your own ability to read them, to the extent when to suggest it is phoney is offensive to you. But it doesn't make it any more "real".

I can do tarot readings (kind of) and in my opinion it's all completely false. Each card has special meanings, and each place has a special meaning, and shuffles are random. I believe it's all nonsense.

if we use the draw me a tree dvd as the example then, that's not cold reading as stated by farlsey...

so what is it then? how does it "seem" to work?

could it be that certain groups of people think similarly, so therefore when they visualise a tree, they instantly visualise the same kinda tree? im sure everyone has one or two mates that react the same as yourself in certain situations...and certain elements of your character would therefore be the same...

thats why you're friends in the first place i would imagine...

maybe people chase after meanings because otherwise - what else is there in life for some? a futile time spent on earth until you snuff it...

fill it with what? meaning? but its all random...the universe - fluke!

no one really knows what happened before the big bang, our whole world is of our own definitions...even time itself...

what would of happened if we marked time in 48 increments rather than 24? who decided? why?

taking on a wider issue, if there is a god, i've often thought - why does he have to be any of these religions at all? what if there was/is a god, it created the universe, but isnt of any of the religions that man labelled and created? what if he doesnt care? or maybe he's just a cosmic gardener of sorts...plants seeds and watches what sprouts up and survives...

tarot, esp, hypnosis, nlp, religion, big bang theory...believe in it or not...i don't think there are many 100% truths in the world though..only variants and view points...

Farlsborough wrote:May I ask why you ask for someone who "knows what they're talking about" Queenie?

Because I want to get to the bottom of it. I don't want to wade through a swamp of opinion. I want to know for a FACT whether there is anything to Tarot. I don't believe a word of it. It's not mystical, it's not some spooky thing, it's just rubbish and skilled guessing accompanied by cards with old looking drawings on.

I mean, I can read people's minds because I can force a card on them and make 3 or 4 minutes out of pretending to be "getting something" from them before I finally settle on the card I knew from the very beginning they chose. But it's NOT REAL. I didn't hear their thoughts, I didn't tap into their brainbox, it just seems like I did.

I hate scum like John Edward and Derek Acorah who are clearly charlatans and raking in millions by pretending to be hearing from the dead when they definitely are not. They make me sick. All I'm asking is whether Tarot is the same - I think it is, it's a trick. And I love tricks. As long as they're just tricks.

As soon as you start using your skill to charge people money to pretend to talk to their dead loved ones, then I want to take a baseball bat to your cranium, because it's disgusting and abusive.

queenie - dont get mixed up between tarot reading and mediums...

which are what akorah and colin fry reckon they are...

completely different kettle of b*llsh*t that is...

There is something to the Tarot... but in the interest of not casuing arguments - I'll PM it to you rather than posting it here.

queen of clubs wrote:

Farlsborough wrote:May I ask why you ask for someone who "knows what they're talking about" Queenie?

Because I want to get to the bottom of it. I don't want to wade through a swamp of opinion. I want to know for a FACT whether there is anything to Tarot. I don't believe a word of it.

There we go then! That's just what I'm saying - no one is going to be able to do that for you. Because you don't have to be deliberately cold reading to do tarot - but just because a load of people say they do it and there's something in it doesn't make that so.

You've decided you don't believe in God or elves or fairies, presumably without consulting people who supposedly "really know" what they're talking about in either of those two fields... Mark Lewis has stated on this forum that he has asked someone who "really knew" about hypnosis as he was a professional hypnotist for a long time - he says he's rubbish, yet people still believe in it. As I mentioned - would you ask Tom Cruise for the definitive answer on whether there was anything in scientology?

Because of the nature of tarot, there is no real authority on the matter - tarot entertainers, "serious psychics", psychologists, sceptics - they all claim to "really know" and yet their opinions will spread nicely between polar opposites!

It's an interesting subject but in all good will - asking for fact rather than opinion on the matter is almost a 100% fruitless endeavour IMHO!