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by **jim ferguson** » Apr 24th, '11, 17:34

There have been many threads on TM about things like illegal downloads etc, and how it is basically stealing, and denying the creators their dues. Im sure we all agree this is wrong.

What are others thoughts on this ?

jim

by **magicollie** » Apr 24th, '11, 17:55

jim ferguson wrote:There have been many threads on TM about things like illegal downloads etc, and how it is basically stealing, and denying the creators their dues. Im sure we all agree this is wrong.
Id like to talk about another type of stealing that takes place within the magic community - that of working out a new (or old) effect from performance footage, and making and/or using it ourselves. Ive read many posts on forums (not just this one) where folk have stated they've worked out so and so's effect or routine, and seem to feel that this gives them the right to perform it. To me this is just as bad as illegal copies of magic teaching material. The creator has not been paid their dues.
This is even worse when the effect is not actually released, but is for the creators own use. An example of this would be the card effect Derren Brown presented to Johnathan Ross and his wife. Ive noticed many magicians mentioning that they use this, yet Derren didnt actually release it, so technically it isnt theirs to use. Im sure you can think of many other examples.
What are others thoughts on this ?
jim

Hmmm, I find this very interesting. In my opinion if the effect hasn't been released, you should contact the creator and ask for permission to perform the effect.

by **Nic Castle** » Apr 24th, '11, 18:03

wont the magician own the intellectual rights? If so it is exactly the same as stealing through illegal download. Proving it in court may be difficult but that does not change a thing.

Saddly it does not surprise me that a relatively small community has members who dont have the the morals to support their fellow magicians.

Nic

by **Ted** » Apr 24th, '11, 18:14

Re: unreleased material. The method can only be guessed at in some cases, so the 'crime' is copying a presentation and not the method, which is not definitely known. To some extent the same goes for guessing released material too. At a certain level, a magician is going to see through lots of effects, videoed or live. If they are that good then they probably already know the principles being used. So no stealing in that case, unless they sell it maybe.

by **Erwin** » Apr 24th, '11, 18:16

Don't forget copyrighted material be it books or DVDs shouldn't be borrowed or resold second hand either. If you are going to buy a second hand book or DVD (or borrow one from a friend) you are denying the copyright owner a sale and it makes you no better than an illegal downloader.

by **jim ferguson** » Apr 24th, '11, 18:18

Erwin wrote:Don't forget copyrighted material be it books or DVDs shouldn't be borrowed or resold second hand either. If you are going to buy a second hand book or DVD (or borrow one from a friend) you are denying the copyright owner a sale and it makes you no better than an illegal downloader.

by **jim ferguson** » Apr 24th, '11, 18:33

Ted wrote:Re: unreleased material. The method can only be guessed at in some cases, so the 'crime' is copying a presentation and not the method, which is not definitely known. To some extent the same goes for guessing released material too. At a certain level, a magician is going to see through lots of effects, videoed or live. If they are that good then they probably already know the principles being used. So no stealing in that case, unless they sell it maybe.

jim

by **Grimshaw** » Apr 24th, '11, 18:53

But where does it stop? I first saw an ACR on a David Blaine special. I have my own ACR...so am I stealing his idea?

by **jim ferguson** » Apr 24th, '11, 18:58

Grimshaw wrote: I first saw an ACR on a David Blaine special. I have my own ACR...so am I stealing his idea?

jim

by **Alec Burns** » Apr 24th, '11, 19:05

Who invented the DL? I use this all the time but havnt ever bought anything from the original creator.

This is a real tough one and one again it will probably end up in an argument. Look at who invented the car yet many company's now make them without paying a penny to Ford. Intellectual property is so very hard to control. You should either keep material to yourself, ala Berglas' ACAAN or release it knowing that you will be losing profit due to pirating etc.

This issue will never be black and White. If I was to release something then I would be aware that others will 'pass' the info on to friends. Maybe higher prices would dissuade others from parting with info quite so easily?!

Alec

by **Nic Castle** » Apr 24th, '11, 19:16

kobain wrote:Who invented the DL? I use this all the time but havnt ever bought anything from the original creator.

This is a real tough one and one again it will probably end up in an argument. Look at who invented the car yet many company's now make them without paying a penny to Ford. Intellectual property is so very hard to control. You should either keep material to yourself, ala Berglas' ACAAN or release it knowing that you will be losing profit due to pirating etc.

This issue will never be black and White. If I was to release something then I would be aware that others will 'pass' the info on to friends. Maybe higher prices would dissuade others from parting with info quite so easily?!

Alec

I agree with you alec, looking at the concept of the car. The idea of the car can be reproduced, ie general concept, but when a manufacturer releases a new component that is protected. If a magician develops a sleight or effect that is unique to them they own the intellectual rights.

The whole area though is so grey that proving it is another point all together. How far does intellectual rights go reminds me of what a law teach said to me. Any law goes as far as it can be proved and it is the courts to set the boundaries. Very few people follow through court proceedings because it is often difficult to prove and can cost more than you are likely to recover through the courts.

Does Blaine use one of Dia Vernons methods of ACR? just out of interest.

Nic

by **jim ferguson** » Apr 24th, '11, 19:17

Just for the record - I have been just as guilty of this as many others, and Im sure most of us have done it at some point. When I was young I worked out many effects from watching Paul Daniels, Doug Henning and David Copperfield, which I then used. Over the years though my views have changed on this sort of thing

jim

by **Grimshaw** » Apr 24th, '11, 19:19

The magicians you spoke of that have taken the effect that Derren performed for Wossy, did they steal his presentational framing too? As in, they did it for a couple to illustrate that they have a connection?

Its not a question that has any place in the discussion as such, I'm just interested. Eric Ross released a similar version called Election with no such presentational frame and it just comes over as a puzzle to be solved, whereas Derren really gave the effect an emotional impact as well as a magical one.

I'm not sure which ACR Blaine uses to be honest. It seems that the passage of time dictates what can be 'stolen' and what can't...

by **Mr_Grue** » Apr 24th, '11, 19:55

I am contractually obliged to point out that theft is a criminal offence, but infringement of intellectual property rights is a civil offence. Just legal semantics, but it's an important disctinction to some.

I think my own personal line in the sand is whether or not you're going to perform it, be that for money or otherwise. I've reverse engineered many an effect over the years (I really can't help myself), and have paid for the stuff I've gone onto use. This is not solely for ethical reasons, as working out the core technique is often less than half the battle. If an effect producer has done their work and performed the effect a few hundred times before releasing it, then they are hopefully going to supplement the core technique with a subtleties, troubleshooting, contingencies and more. Sadly this is often far from the case, but that's a discussion for another day.

The ethical element is still very strong though. I acquired by nefarious means, and long before I knew any better, the Bizarre Vanish by Paul Harris. Spent a short while performing it, but eventually the guilt took its toll, and I stopped. We're supposed, as performers, to make effects our own. It's hard enough to do that when we've actually paid for the right to perform them, let alone when we've ripped off the creator.

by **Alec Burns** » Apr 24th, '11, 19:58

The other tricky angle comes along when a young magician 'invents' something new which he has never before seen or heard of, only to discover it's 80 years old!

I've done it before, reinvented something ignorant of it's existence. Do we think that it's time to just accept that this happens ALL the time and since magic became 'mainstream' has happened from the beginning.

Technology has helped many areas such as people learning about, let's say geography, but the Internet has also had it's bad points such as exposure.
I have to be honest now and say that I have learned a he'll of a lot from videos on the web and do I feel I need to find out the original source and make a payment? No I don't! Have I helped other people by showing them how certain things work? Yes I have and I'm not the only one. Tipping goes on in this trade, if it didn't, the art of magic would probably be owned by the wealthy.

Alec

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