talkmagic.co.uk

my two pennies worth...

deception..hmm, well - only if you'd class an actor as one step away from being a liar...he's not really the person he's portraying in the film is he...same as a magician pretending that a coin vanished from one hand into the other or a card has changed colour in someone's hand...

illusion...again, sticking with the actor analogy - someone is giving the impression that something has happened when it hasn't...

I think the key thing is that all these arts are done with entertainment in mind, to take someone on a journey however short or long...

we all get 'lost' in films for instance, we are kind of decieved for those 95 minutes - the lighting, the make-up, the wardrobe (isnt that a book? oh no lion, witch isn't it)...all suspend belief or create disbelief to the person experiencing it...

magic to me should be precisely that - something i cannot explain logically...i want my eyes to be decieved, i want to be taken on some kind of emotional journey...and if someone defines that as being 'lied' to, then lie to me...it's with my consent above all else...

I think I better clarify something about my previous posts.. When I said that a magician/actor decieves, this was not meant in a negative way.

For me deception is a tool that is used to create an experience for the spectator that they cannot explain, just as a surgeon uses a scalpel or an artist uses a brush, it is a means to an end.

And let me clarify: when I said magician's don't lie or deceive, I meant that it's not an intentional lie or deception, such as a con.

When I describe illusion as being not a lie or deception, it is illusion as a nice positive friendly word, rather than a 'lie' or 'deception' which sound horrible.

Granted—I know the literal meanings, but I was more pointing out how I LIKE to think people conceive the art of magic (hence, me following the topic of the discussion: how magic is misinterpreted).

Therefore, the upshot of what I was saying is: I want people to think of magic as an ILLUSION rather than a LIE, CON or DECEPTION.

...and let me clarify those clarifications..maybe not...

yeah - I'm hoping my post didnt sound like i was having a go at anyone - i wasn't...basically it whittles down to this for me -

let magic suspend reality, turn my mind upside down, and make me question what i have accepted as "the truth" even if it's just for a minute...

maybe a little o.t.t. but thats how i feel...

This kindly deception can sometimes be done in a very subtle yet convincing way. Assume you wish to assure the specs that, for instance, a hat is empty and later on produce an assortment of goodies from it. Rather than state the obvious 'I take this empty hat', all you need do is reach over, remove something from it which appears to have filled it completely and perhaps tap the hat upside down indicating that there's nothing left in there and the specs will assume it's empty. You don't need to say a word and are therefore not actually fibbing - just inferring something. Very often this casual inference is far more convincing that spoken words and specs can't easily track back to a point where they suspect deception to have occurred like they could if they recall verbal statements.

ahhh dual-reality...

if you're sitting at a bus-stop and the guy next to you starts chatting and said he was an architect...you'd no doubt believe him, regardless of whether he actually was or not...

...or if you walk on stage with say a mug, with steam coming out of it - people will assume you have a cup of tea/coffee...it might not be though, it could be an empty mug with a cigarette inside...

in the second instance, you're not lying, you're letting the audience assume...that's completely their choice...

And as mentioned elsewhere, spec's mental assumptions are far stronger yet more subtle than anything you actually show them. The tea cup analogy above is right on target .

Praise the lord... someone has hit upon exactly what I was trying to explain about it not being a lie or deception...

The tea cup analogy is spot on. It's an illusion based on assumption, which is the spectator's own free will.

Ahhh, I feel cleansed.

...ahhhh indeed - though i can't claim it as my own..

it's the genius of Mr. Knepper who said it...(i just checked - i didnt want to quote the wrong person)...its in Trance This! by the way, a very fine book if i may plug it here...

This subject is covered in detail in Magic and Showmanship by Henning Nelms. He talks about it being like a contract with the audience where they are happy to suspend belief and be entertained if you create the right atmosphere. It happens all the time in radio, television, film and stage. We know and understand that the characters on screen are portayed by actors yet we still feel drawn in to their situation.

Okay yeah, the teacup anology was better.

Perhaps a quote from Penn Jillette will confuse things a little more:

Penn Jillette wrote:I have the best job in the world. I tell people I'm going to fool them. They pay me money. I then fool them. I fool them good.

I think the second statement differentiates a magician from a conman.

I really do agree with what you say gentlemen, I think all we've been disagreeing on is the terminology and not the practice.

archimage wrote: So I ask, What do you think is the biggest misconception in magic is?

Archimage

I thought it was that "Magic makes girls hot!"

You don't mention Entertaining.
No audience believes a magician REALLY does those things by 'magic'. They just suspend belief, as when watching actors, for one brief shining moment.
Magic is the Art of Entertaining through respectable deception.
One of the Biggest Lies in Magic is the one so very many magicians tell themselves about their performance or their approach to performance or would be performance.
Allen Tipton

I agree with both points, I child came to me one day after a show and asked "is magic real?" And without question I said "Absolutly!"
Did I lie? I don't think so. I think of it as giving a gift to that child, something to belive in.
SO instead of Illusions, and deception, I think of it as something of myself that I can give to others.

To dramatic?

Magic Mandy:I do agree Magic is real, if it creates wonder and happiness in people of all ages.
Even today when Peter Pan kneels in the footlights, as Tinkerbell lies dying, and calls out "If you believe in fairies clap your hands" They all do..ADULTS as well and there is not a dry eye in the House as the recovered Tink flies up and round the stage. I well remember my late Musical Director who wrote the score for my version of Peter Pan, with tears running down his face every night. We nearly had to cue him in for the 'flying out' music.
Continue to believe, in Magic, in this harsh, violent, rude world, we now live in.
You should look up the late Doug Henning's many words, on 'A Sense Of Wonder'
Allen Tipton.