talkmagic.co.uk

...which ties into my mother-nature comment too...

that during the last tsunami, all the animals kinda rushed away before it started, they sensed something...yet we? hmmmmm

perhaps our evolutionary process has unfortunately over-simplified our subconcious processes that would of alerted us in the same way that it did the other animals...so perhaps that might be some way of an explanation as to how some people are 'psychic' and others aren't...

maybe not...

...that's another question i have, if we were created in god's image and so forth, how come we've also evolved? even going back to the victorians, we are nowadays larger-brained and taller and so on...how come that happens?...

As I said before - this type of thing is best discussed over a glass of wine
But - some interesting issues have been raised.

I think sometimes we define what God is supposed to be and then show how he/she doesn't meet those criteria therefore can't exist. The real question isn't what we claim to believe - but how we live our lives. I know many people who have all the 'orthodox' theology, but their lives don't reflect what they claim to believe. I also know a few people who live compassionate, spiritual and truly human lives. To me it doesn't matter what they believe - but they do reflect what I would like to strive towards being. Maybe that's what God is about?

The Bible teaches:

"Faith without works is dead!"

I also know people who do not practice what they preach (literally) and that's

a) Not helpful
b)hypocritical
c)a bad witness

taneous wrote:The real question isn't what we claim to believe - but how we live our lives.

Of course, we should all live good lives. But I'm a good person, not because of the rules set out in the Bible or because I fear God, but because I am a genuinely nice and good person. Yet, I will go to Hell. The Bible says in John, 'No one will reach the Father except through [Christ]'. So, without a belief in Christ I am condemed to hell. Doesn't seem fair or just to me!!

But if you have a 'faith' is always derived from some kind of writings, in this case the Bible. But if the book is flawed, or the image of God it portrays is contradictory then the 'faith' is unstable too.

Maybe that's not what the verse says..

hmm - glass of wine anyone
I'd love to discuss this - but my views on this may offend some of the christians here and this thread has been relatively civil so far - so if you want - pm me..
(I think that is one of the most mis-quoted verses of the bible and probably means exactly opposite to what it is usually interpreted to mean - within the greater context of the book of John..)

Yeah this thread has been excellent. It wouldnt happen on any other forum!

It does seem unfair BUT while we should all try to do good thing everyone has to admit that they do bad things occassionally. GOd, in Christian's eyes, is perfect - he cannot tolerate "sin" so by believing (or trusting) in Christ the gap is bridged between God and mankind which works (or deeds) could not do.

Again though, does it matter to you whether it's fair if you don't believe it?

I agree with taneous, though. This isn't really the place for this discussion but it is very interesting! taneous I'll have a drink it'll have to be 'Coke' though (16)!

Pitto wrote:God, in Christian's eyes, is perfect - he cannot tolerate "sin"

True, but God's track record isn't all that great... 10 Plagues of Egypt alone were pretty harsh. Killing innocent children was pretty unnecessary! I can't find an explanation for why he would do such a thing!

Maybe but justice is God's to determine not man's. Secondly there's a parrallel there, the Egyptions had plenty of warnings they could have repented but they didn't so they were punished. God didn't do it out the blue.

Also, many of the plagues have a deeper meaning of reputing Egyptian Gods - the Nile for example.

taneous wrote:As I said before - this type of thing is best discussed over a glass of wine

Not if you're a Methodist ! But the sentiment is right and there will always be many varied opinions - each one equally valid. Just to echo the comments above, thanks for keeping the tone of this thread even, informative and civil - long may it continue in the same way.

Pitto wrote: the Egyptions had plenty of warnings they could have repented but they didn't so they were punished. God didn't do it out the blue.

Well, actually God caused this. In the Bible, Exodus 4:21 God says to Moses, "...but I will harden his [Pharaoh's] heart, so that he will not let the people go."
So in fact, God MADE the Pharaoh say no, seemingly so he could punish the Egyptians. The Pharaoh was not evil of his own accord, it was God's will for him to say no.

That seems particularly harsh to me.

lol - you're having fun - aren't you

Well personally I would argue that in this particular circumstance context is very important and this thread has become a theological debate which I'll be happy to continue via PM with anyone but perhaps the open forum is not the place.

taneous wrote:lol - you're having fun - aren't you

Maybe. I was a Christian until about a year ago. I sat down one day and took my beliefs apart, and found they wouldn't fit together again. As such I believe its very important to question the things you believe. Taking away all the presuppositions you have and looking at your beliefs objectively often gives you a new perspective on them. I found my Christianity was subject to the same circular logic and flaws that riddled new age beliefs.
But that's just me....

Yeah thats fair enough I took mine apart and found that nothing fitted (Is that even a word - it doesn't sound right!) in their place.

If this thread was at Bunny everyone would have fallen out by now!

Mark Smith wrote: I sat down one day and took my beliefs apart, and found they wouldn't fit together again.

I understand where you're coming from. Except I was in the ministry when I started doing the same thing.. Now I'm a software developer.