talkmagic.co.uk

saxmad wrote:Think magic is a great way to liven up a stuff church service.....

Who said church was boring!

The mad things we do these days are great fun and a real laugh at times!]

Also referring to the lying thing.

As a well known christian comedy magician / mentalist John Archer says something like "Some people ask me whether i use special powers when doing magic - To be honest i dont, everything you see tonight is done by pure talent and talent alone"

In other words...what hes doing is just tricks!

Taiven_Grant wrote:Well, I was an atheist for a good 17/18 years. And then I had some experiences, which I won't blather on about here (though if anyone wants to know they can ask). I was a staunch atheist too, did not believe in religious experience, thought that everyone who had a faith of any kind was a fool. Well, after what happened I had a change of heart. It's definitely made me a better, happier, more thoughtful person. I imagine this reflects on anything I do.

I'm the opposite.

I was a Christian but certain things I was present for (Somalia 93, Rwanda 94 etc) made me an atheist. I recognise that I'm now a less happy and less moral person but there we are. It may just be the process of growing up though.

Before anyone starts, I'm not taking the mick.

I am a holy psychic reverend and was ordained on the booth of a psychic fair by the right Reverend Nelson Guyette who has recently passed into the spirit world where he is no doubt partying with an old friend of his- Peter Hurkos the renowned clairvoyant.

Since I am a holy man of the cloth I am no doubt in a position to comment on spiritual matters as they apply to conjuring.

First I should mention that I was highly amused to read once a remark by John Booth that he had never seen a good clergyman conjurer. He said they find it difficult to tell lies. I must confess that as a man of the cloth myself I do not find it terribly difficult to tell lies at all but then everyone is different.

John Booth himself left showbusiness at the top of his profession to become a minister and has remained in this position for nigh on 60 years. Various cynical old veterans of showbusiness tell me that the reason for his sudden enthusiasm for spiritual matters was as a result of being afraid of being drafted into the second world war. It seems that ordained clergymen could't be called up to shoot people as it would be considered a mite unspiritual.

Regarding gospel magic I well remember the late Goodliffe thundering in his editorial in Abra that this sort of amusement brought the church into disrepute. He did excuse it slightly on the grounds that it seemed to be an American thing and was therefore expected to be in bad taste.

I was amused at Goodliffe's tut-tutting about gospel magic when he had money coming of his ears because of religion. He drove a Rolls Royce because of the fortune he made selling religious artifacts to all and sundry. He was even given a papal knighthood for services rendered to the Catholic church.

All this brings to mind a post I made on the Genii Forum about Danny Korem who was convinced that wicked psychics should be debunked because of supposed fakery and yet it was perfectly reasonable for people to rise from the dead when they weren't supposed to.

I might find that post and put it here. It so amused Banacek that he sent me a private e-mail about it. However he ceased communication when I felt obliged to reprimand him in my capacity as a reverend for coming out with what I consider to be vulgar remarks in a mentalism show. I do not approve of the awful line about "hindsight" when people stand back to back in a mentalism show.

If any of you are wondering about my church I must tell you that it has certain advantages. Belief in God is quite unnecessary. And the donations received from my congregation are quite high.

Reverend Mark Lewis
Free Spiritualist Church of Canada
www.marklewisentertainment.com

Pitto wrote:I'm a Christian and my faith has an effect on my life, so, naturally, my beliefs affect how i perform magic - not in a huge way but they do.

For example I wouldn't try to undermine a spectators intelligence as some do but try and make them have a good time and enjoy the magic.

Sorry to pick up on this if it wasn't meant in the way I've interpretted it but are you saying that undermining someone's intelligence is something you avoid because you are Christian? I would just consider that to be common courtesy.

I am not religious and I feel that, on a global scale at least, organised religion has been responsible for far more damage than it has good. Chrisitans were slaughtering Muslims and vice versa and everyone was picking on the Jews centuries ago and it's carried on in the same vein ever since. So many major conflicts have had a religous tension somewhere in the causes that I find it very hard to see the more positive side.

I lost my faith in any kind of church long before I was mature enough to evaluate my religious beliefs themselves. When I did get round to that in my mid teens I foundthat I didn't truly believe in any God or afterlife, but I did have a profound faith in the universe behaving to a set of rules, and so live my own life to a set of rules.

If I were to align myself with any religion, however, it would probably be an old, Pagan style religion which reveers nature itself as the source of godliness.

I hope not to have offended anyone, what I have said are merely my own feelings articulated as strongly as I feel them and I want to make clear that I have nothing but respect to those who truly follow the teachings of a religion, most of which preach kindness whatever face they have shown on a global scale through history.

ian69 wrote:

Taiven_Grant wrote:Well, I was an atheist for a good 17/18 years. And then I had some experiences, which I won't blather on about here (though if anyone wants to know they can ask). I was a staunch atheist too, did not believe in religious experience, thought that everyone who had a faith of any kind was a fool. Well, after what happened I had a change of heart. It's definitely made me a better, happier, more thoughtful person. I imagine this reflects on anything I do.

I'm the opposite.

I was a Christian but certain things I was present for (Somalia 93, Rwanda 94 etc) made me an atheist. I recognise that I'm now a less happy and less moral person but there we are. It may just be the process of growing up though.

Before anyone starts, I'm not taking the mick.

It might not be a process of 'growing up', but it's surely a process. You might find your way back, and I hope you do

...i agree with nickyj to be honest; in my way of thinking - religion causes alot of division, rather than togetherness...

none of the below is meant to inflame anyone, these are just some of the many questions i have about the whole subject...

..there's the whole thing that ultimately isnt there only one true religion? so what happens to the rest of the faiths?...

...im quite willing to believe there was a Jesus for instance, but he wasn't the son of god - possibly just a philosipher or medical man....and moral parables were written about him...

...dinosaurs, kinda glossed over in most faiths really...and as they lived on this earth for many, many years i feel they deserve at least a mention once or twice...

...i don't need the threat of damnation to behave and conduct myself in a proper and moral manner (which is what i think the religious books where written to do originally)....

i've never even stolen a penny sweet in my life, never attacked anyone physically, never lied over anything important - and any woman i've been in love with i've treated with respect and listened to their constant whinging with a smile on my face...

...anyway, did you know the first bible written and printed in English was done by a German? And he got burned at the stake for it? How very forgiving!

Just my views, as i said before - each to their own, we all die in the end don't we and the constant threat of some nasty fatal disease...how cheery!

hmm - interesting, but dangerous thread. I've been hesitant to respond - but I suppose I might as well.

Firstly - in response to the post on 'growing up', I think part of growing up is coming to terms with what we've been taught and brought up to believe. Sometimes part of the growth process is realising that our belief system doesn't relate to real life. This may lead to a total rejection of it, an adaptation of it, or compartimentalising it into our 'beliefs' and we live a bit of a double life. Either way - I think that regecting a belief in God can, for some, be a necesary part of the 'growth' process. This has been studied and documented by meany developmental theorists (see Fowler on Faith Development).

Over to me..
I spent most of my youth serving the church and then spent around 10 years either studying theology or working as a minister. In the last few years, however, I have come to a point where I don't call myself a 'christian' any more - or be involved in a church (in the traditional sense of the word). While I have the greatest respect for the teaching of Jesus and honestly try and live by them, I think what we see as the church today is very far from these teachings - love your enemies, don't judge, take the log out your own eye etc. etc.

As for magic and faith - For me it is about acknowleging the mystery of life - the mystery of being alive. That involves a respect for other life and an acknowlegement of that mystery in others, at the same time realising that I'm connected to others through this mystery. This has probably also become the main focus of my performance - so for me, my 'faith' and performance are often one and the same thing...

...i've just been thinking about this subject whilst making coffee, does anyone else find it strange that for the most part - you just end up the religion that you are born into? that's my experience anyways...

..so there's no concious thought process as such - its just the way it is, "we are - so you are..."

..i find that mystifying, so much faith automatically attributed to you just because you happen to be born into a religious family...

still, each to their own - im all for peace, love and understanding above all else...

abraxus wrote:...does anyone else find it strange that for the most part - you just end up the religion that you are born into?

I don't find that strange at all - it's quite logical, actually. Someone born into a home with an atheist point of view will more than likely grow up atheist. Our culture often determines what we believe (including a culture tending towards atheism will tend to produce atheists - one needs to look at it from both sides )

...sorry, i meant that there's no real choice involved; you believe it because everyone else does...maybe thats why some people 'revolt' when they're older and want to explore their individuality...

the sheer randomness of what religion you are, rather than 'finding' it because you feel that something is missing - just seems a little strange to my mind...

You type too fast - I was still editing my post

I agree with you. I think that's what Fowler refers to as 'synthetic conventional' faith (it's been a while since I've read that stuff). I think true spirituality (be it agnosticism or whatever) is an honest look at the realities, as well as the mystery, of life and living. This usually involves a questioning of the belief system with which we've been brought up.
However - we not only need to question our belief system, but the belief systems imposed on us by 'the system': soceity, the media, the popular philosohies of the day etc. etc.

Anyway - too early in the day for this kind of discussion - best done over a glass of good red wine in front of the fire

...if that's an offer mate, might take me a while to nip round!...

i've already recommended it in another post, but your comments about the media and so on - try "Fallacies and Pitfalls of Language - the language trap" by S. Morris Engel....very interesting book...extremely well written...

Tell you what - next time I'm in the UK we'll make a plan. Probably going to try and come over in May next year (or whenever Craig intends on doing a series on lectures in the UK).

But if you're ever in South Africa -the red wine is waiting. We have some good stuff over here - and I live in the winelands..

I'll look the book up - thanks

Is Mr. Browning doing some lectures? that'll be superb...

I wonder if the Black Hart would do any in London?...

..i still get excited ordering from black artefacts cos i know its coming from the same island as they filmed The Wicker Man on...how class is that...and i've not had one bad product from him...

Yeah, perhaps we could arrange a little meeting for a few of us rabble eh...that would be a good laugh..

nickj:

Sorry that was quite poor wording on my part - I was in no way implying that "non-Christians" do this sort of thing. BUT I have a faith which means I have to live out what I believe - it is not an ideal but how I fell I should live.

I was merely trying to articulate the fact that I cannot separate what I do from being a Christian that wouyld be hypocritical and a waste of my time and anyone's I ever met. So, perhaps better wording would have "if there was something in magic that was in conflict with my faith I wouldn't be able to do it".

Also, yes it is common courtesy BUT my faith involoves NOT undermineing people etc. so yes it is BECAUSE I am a Christian but that doesn't mean those without a faith can't be friendly at alll.

Another point you made is the problems religion has caused - people throughout history who have started terror campaigns and wars in the name of "faith/religion" were, in fact, not living how 99% of faiths teach (including those you mentioned).

No I am not offended by what you said

Chris