talkmagic.co.uk

Yeah—I know I sell magic, write magic, moderate a forum, and all that jazz. But I just feel sometimes that magic is losing it's values.

To me, magic is a performance art. A magician is a skilled performer, who uses magic to entertain.

Is there a fine line between the current splurge of new magic, and 'gag' magic? What is a magic 'trick', and what is a magic 'effect'? Are they the same, or is a trick just something you use to fool people?

Categorize these into what you feel they are/do for magic/performance:

1. Vernon's Twisting the Aces
2. Nobeledaza's Self Tying Shoelaces
3. Criss Angel's 'pulling a woman in two'

My view is that:
1. Vernon's effect is true magic. Skilful, inventive, original
2. Could be used as magic, but STS is more of a 'gag' isn't it?
3. Sheer capitalism. Nothing magic about using a physically challenged woman in an effect is there?

Cynical? Hmmm...

When I personally started out in magic, I aspired to be as good as my idols. I wanted to become a good magician.

Sure, we all have the playground experience of pranks such as pulling your thumb in two, etc. But they end there—they are pranks.

Most 'laypeople' see magic as anything which they can't explain; a floating woman, someone getting sawn in half, an impossible looking card trick.

But as magicians, do we see magic as something more?

I'm purely interested in people's point of view on all this. What actually spurned these thoughts was seeing the aforementioned Angel effect.

Greatly disappointed with the whole 'new age' magic scene in general, I feel that sometimes I'd like to go back five years to a time when magic was a skill, not just something that is done for effect.

Has some respect been lost?

As a trader, I get a lot of emails about magic. Questions such as "How do you do the trick where..." or "Will you be stocking ..."

Frankly, I don't sell ANYTHING on NUMS which I don't feel is worthy of making my own grade. Yeah, I may be shooting myself in the foot, but everything I sell I would personally have no hesitation in endorsing.

I don't just shove everything on there which is current and mainstream... I try to vet all products and make sure they're worthy.

So, my own critique in this post surely contradicts my selling of STS, Shrinking Finger, DisJointed etc.

However—I personally feel that all these effects have a true 'magical' quality to them.

It's a tough marketplace out there. But I am not intent on competing.

It's also a new magic world out there. Seems that anyone can become 'a magician' these days.

I'd love to know if I'm alone in these feelings...

As a young, relatively unexperienced magician who is selling his own magic at the moment, I don't know if I fall into your shit-list category or not - but I thought I'd add to this post anyway.

First off, I'm with you 100% of the way in what those three tricks are in terms of magic. Practically all of Vernons magic was beautiful, and genuinely magical. STS however, isn't so much. It's not one of those "Hey everyone gather round and watch this!" tricks. It's just a bit of on the spur fun magic. But like you said, it has its place in the magic world.

Magic is a dying artform I have to agree. Many nights have been spent discussing such matters with fellow mages, all these people who want to be the next *insert idol here*. That's not being a magician - that's trying to be a knock off second run copy of someone who quite probably isn't all that great.
Before I became a magician the only pros I knew of wwere David Blaine, Paul Daniels and David Copperfield. (And Alice Cooper when he's in the mood...) Yeah they're all good at what they do, but they're unique and genuinely magical.

There's no entertainment in watching some little punk kid running around thinking he's the business because he can twist his arm 360 degrees because he saw David Blaine do it.

The art form is dying yes... I am, in my own small way, trying to keep it alive, by dedicating myself to what I do, practicing long and hard and trying to be entertaining - not trying to be anyone else or using it as "Ha! Aren't I good! I can trick you!"

Stephen Fry once mentioned a theory about magic being the revenge of the nerd. Those who aren't good on the sports field etc use it instead, to impress etc.
I have to agree with that theory, but that isn't magic. That's showing off...

Magic is an entertaining art, much like singing, dancing, theatre etc. So why oh why wont people treat it like that?

Too often do I see things these days that are either sold as "You thought xyz was good? Wait till you see this!" or "Do this and really freak out your family and friends!"

Whatever happened to the good old art of performance?




I have rambled too long now, and I'm probably way off topic. But I thought I'd throw this lot into the mix anyway

I think anyone can learn 'tricks', but very few can become a magician.

The whole vernacular bugs me to be honest.

I never refer to anything magic related as a 'trick'. 'Cos then labelling it as such, that what i potentially become. Just a trick, a deliberate obvious fooling. One definition is 'Fraudulent'.

Yes i know, its contradictory - the whole art of it is a form of trickery and fooling one way or the other. Whether it be a sleight of hand or mouth, a switch here, a pass there...its a deception.

But for me, its way that you do it, the style and the journey you go on where you totally forget that what you see and feel is just an illusion.

Films that move you deeply for instance, you dont feel cheated after watching one do you just 'cos it's not 'real'. It's how it's touched you in some way...well, for me anyways...

I think the latest style of street magic is a little too dry and rushed for me. There's some great effects sure, but you dont really get a complete act do you..its bits here, bits there...Playing Tricks suffers alot from that i feel. I'd much prefer seeing a whole halfhour's worth of magic from one or two of them, rather than just one effect repeated a few times...

I know its a personal taste thing, but i would love to see someone with the class and pressence of say David Burglas to appear on screen now. Hour long specials would be superb, give them some time to breathe and give you a chance to get completely drawn in. Like Paul Daniels format really. A couple of guests in between and then a grand finale.

It is a double-edged sword in other respects too, people quite rightly want to make money from their talents whatever they be. Magic is no different.

But by those people releasing the no skill required 'tricks', you attract peoples attention by that selling point.

Anyone can do this! Which in a way could be interpretted by the general public as "magicians have no skills or powers - i can do that too!" and all for £5.99

Then, when they do buy the self-working packet trick, they automatically leap to the conclusion that "david blaine can do it, i can do it, therefore i am the new david blaine"...

And even worse, when they then go onto something like Kenton's material and slag it off in a review, not because they honestly studied it for months and months and months, but because they've read it in the lav once and it didnt work on their younger brother...if they can't do it after 10 minutes, it must be rubbish musnt it?!

Yes im slightly over exaggerating, but that is the way some come across sometimes...not all certainly, there's plenty that give magic the respect it deserves and want to push themselves and magic in general to a new level...

I think thats perhaps why Derren Brown is so popular, he's got some of that old style class about him....i think thats what is missing nowadays...

Yes, I would have to say I agree too with what has been said

1. Vernon's effect is true magic. Skilful, inventive, original
2. Could be used as magic, but STS is more of a 'gag' isn't it?
3. Sheer capitalism. Nothing magic about using a physically challenged woman in an effect is there?

If we are talking about the true meaning of magic, lets look at the dictionary;
MAGIC NOUN:

The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural.

The practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature.

The charms, spells, and rituals so used.

The exercise of sleight of hand or conjuring for entertainment.

Ok, i know dfferent dctionary's have different definitions ut I like this one as it says about slight of hand. Don't get me wrong I do not think all magic needs to involve slights there are many selfworking trick that out their.

Anyway I am not quite sure where I was going to go with this so I will end my post hear.

This is a really interesting thread.

I am a realative newcomer to performing magic but a long time admirer of the art. What seems to be happening to magic is I am afraid what is happening to so many other artforms, pursuits and interests.

Too many people want something for nothing. And by that I mean yes they want it on the cheap but also they don't want to put a lot of effort in to it.

Then you add to that the current TV fad for presenting as magic things that are not in my opinion anything of the sort. Derren Browns the Heist for example was a great piece of TV, and interesting and admirable exercise in the manipulation of people but had, in my opion nothing to do with magic.

But the "I want it now and I want it easy" generation are latching on to this sort of effect and are of on the wannabe bandwagon.

I don't hold too gloomy a view of the future though. Magic as an artform has been around since the dawn of time. It has great endurance and history. The "I want to be David Blaine" brigade are not the sort that will endure, its hard work and thats not what they are about. TV will drop these programmes once the craze starts to wain. Look at how every night a couple of years ago you couldn't turn the telly on without finding a cookery programme. Then one day they were all gone!

When that happens the craze will die and magic which has been just going on in spite of the fashions of the moment will just carry on as a artform and as pure entertainment.

What is encoraging is the number of young magicians who are serious about the subject who appear on the forum every day. These are people who are seeing the fad programmes but still want to learn the DL and the classic force.

On Tuesday evening I was returning from France on the Caen to Portsmouth ferry. It is a 6 hour trip and Brittany Ferries had put on a magician to do a childrens show. I stood at the back and watched a not over talented (sorry if you are on here!!) magician working with the kids. And when the colouring book was suddenly all coloured when it had been black and white there were still gasps. When the silks went in to the bag one colour and came out another the little girl who was assisting was visibly impressed. And this reaction was from a TV audience.

I think I am rambling now so I will draw this to a close. But do take heart from those kids, they still loved conventional magic and unlike me they were not brough up on Chan Canasta and David Nixon.

This is an interesting discussion. I think it's a symptom of the times we live in: too many people want ability without the work to get it. However, I think there's room for it within modern magic, which I'd like to explain:

Personally I've always thought that the easy availability of experience cheapens it. It dumbs it down and devalues it. I mean, it's one thing to freeclimb the Old Man of Hoy. It's quite another matter to pay to be dropped off at the top by helicopter. Both produce stunning photographs of you grinning at the top of the stack, but the latter is an easy fake. I think there's a parallel here to be drawn in genuinely making magic happen and operating a trick you've bought.

Given that unskilled people see it almost as a right to buy experience, as a way forward, let's let wannabes have the instant, commerciall lucrative gratification of operating "kiddie tricks", and let's concentrate on stronger magic and deeper methods that are simply beyond their abilities, but which pack a far bigger punch than they can ever hope to achieve - unless they leave the nursery, buckle down and study to make magic happen.

After all, nothing truly worthwhile is ever easy.

...very true Tomo...

...and when you consider if you could truly master everything taught in Royal Road and Modern Coin Magic, the sheer scope and application that gives you...and cost you twenty quid in total...

..all that skill and technique, compared to one or two packet tricks/dvds with the one effect for the same money...

abraxus wrote:...very true Tomo...

...and when you consider if you could truly master everything taught in Royal Road and Modern Coin Magic, the sheer scope and application that gives you...and cost you twenty quid in total...

..all that skill and technique, compared to one or two packet tricks/dvds with the one effect for the same money...

Yes it would, but i think the costs of learning is something we should be prepared for.

The amount of searching until we find the type of effects that we wish to acheive can be very extensive and costly.

We all go through i think a very steep and fast learning curve when we first get into magic, (got to have that/learn how it is done) it is only with hindsight and experience can we decide what it is that we want to acheive.

I have quite an extensive lybrary /dvd collection and it is only recently after a good 10 years that i am honing the effects that i want and sifting through the dross, to get those good and well performed 8 - 10 effects that i can do and perform and carry with me at all times.

I share the thoughts of many here...much like Abraxus' film analogy, for me it is not so much about how visually magical the thing is, but the emotional impact that it has upon people.

Consider the following: two different ways of producing the same effect - changing the value of a playing card. One costs £20 and is some mechanical gaff. The change happens right in front of you, it's visual, sure. But then the other one uses a simple technique and some psychology and leaves the spectator sure that they felt the card change in their hands. It's certainly nowhere near as visual, sure, but the emotional impact is stronger.

In that sense, the mechanical version is akin to the "kiddie magic" - it's visual, but they merely SEE it happen. That's all very well, and done properly it can be quite powerful. But in the latter the spectator FEELS the magic HAPPENING.

Surely that is closer to REAL magic than any mechanical device could come?

Think of training for magic in parallel to training for being a doctor/nurse.

Yeah, we all learn things like how to tie a bandage, how to take a pulse, how to remove a splinter—but are we therefore doctors or nurses?

To succeed, there's a huge investment in time, energy and focus. It's a slog, but it weeds out the best from the rest.

Perhaps not a totally fair metaphor, but basically buying a coin-in-can and pirating a load of ebooks doesn't make a magician. That's got to be factual at some level.

But what does? ...

one of the main reason's I'm still bashing away at children's shows when i realy should be going into pure theory is exactly what seige stated.
we need to start the love of magic at the grass roots and dispell the instant gratification brigade, to this end most of my kids tricks are self working and basic but this leaves me plenty of time to concentrate on the performance of the trick.

i love to see the kids eyes light up when i do my change bag prediction routine or abbots sponge snack although its dificult to see when you have two sponge balls in your glasses.

i too was brought up on a diet of paul daniels and understood early on that it is the performance of the trick that realy causes the magic, simple tricks like the haunted key and hopping halfs presented well can inspire people to take up the art and put in the effort.

often wile doing a sponge routine i will start by explaining the levitating sponge ball, figer clip, then go into a full routine using just that sleight over and over again, false takes and puts etc.
afterwards when asked how it was done i would explain that i showed you how to do it at the start, anyone can learn a trick but few can make the magic because there looking in the wrong place.
I'm happy to say iv'e been privalidged to start a few magician's on the road, some who have done well, by setting them on the right path of presentation and will continue to do so as long as I'm able.

I agree with you Seige, by and large. I remember seeing a performing magician and being enthralled - the intriguing patter, the friendliness and yet impossibility of it all... I was shown a few tricks* by Roger Curzon about a month ago at a saturday session in Magick Enterprises. I realised I'd forgotten what a privilege it is to be entertained by a true professional; no brash, in your face egotism, no making the audience feel stupid - he has a gentle, anecdotal manner and you could listen/watch him perform all day, and the whole experience is of wonder and positivity.

Compared to this, graffiti-style "graphix", stunt-magic etc. really doesn't hold much charm; people who hold no respect for what has passed and - ignoring all advice of the past - try to flog some idea to ellusionist without any experience or idea of how to work it into a routine. This is why I far more admire and aspire to Sankey's magic than Blaine/Angel etc. Sankey to me is doing contemporary "old style" magic.

However, I think in some ways this shift was inevitable, and it's not entirely the fault of the "upstarts". Obviously younger generations are going to want to bring magic into the 21st century, but for a long time the advise of the older magicians has been "read all these weighty books, study these 16th century principles" etc - how many 16 year olds want to do that? They've looked at some of the magicians around them in cuffs and dusty waist coats with feathers and silks etc. and thought "I am not going to put in years of hard work so I know the full history behind disappearing a sponge ball."

And I don't think the advice is *always* motivated by looking for the best interests of the up-and-coming magicians - I think some older magicians are thinking "i'll be damned if I've put in all this hard work and some 12 year old can put a coin in a bottle with a £12 DVD and an hour's practice..." so they try and dole out some humble pie and the ones aspiring to be the next Blaine fling it back in their faces! Because I think they barely associate rabbits out of hats and hidden compartments in velvet covered tables with any of the raw, supposedly "cutting edge" stuff they want to do - little do they know it all comes out of the same magic bag!

What would be nice to see is a bit of give and take from both sides. Young and old rubbing shoulders at magic societies and on forums; young learning from the rich magic heritage of older members and their experience, but also the older being kept slightly "in touch" with the younger and learning that things are getting more "impossible" and especially more visual; and that changing a silk into some fold-away flowers isn't where it's at any more. Hopefully that way we can work together to steer magic towards a mutually beneficial place.

What does worry me is your last point... "it seems anyone can be a magician these days..." - I remember my playground years and people bringing in a little chinese wallet and disappearing a penny; all fun and games. But what with more and more disposable income going to teens, and the wonderful world of the internet, bitten coin/needle thru arm and even the I.D. are going to become playground gimmicks... to prevent this I have no objection to rigorous questioning before sales of certain items!

[*trick: (dictionary.com):A peculiar event with unexpected, often deceptive results, A deceptive or illusive appearance; an illusion, a special skill; a knack, A convention or specialized skill peculiar to a particular field of activity, A feat of magic or legerdemain]

As for the pulling the lady in two - a very similar thing was done many years ago. Actually - I think it's well done - but that's just my opinion

That said - I agree with what's being said here. I think a lot of it has to do with the internet - especially forums. That's also one of the reasons I don't post so much any more.

But as I type this I feel like I sound like an old man saying "in the good 'ol days...".

I think the real question is what can be done about it. My answer is that I can't do too much, except make sure that I don't fall into that trap - make sure that I get it right. I get really frustrated when I see copies of material I've paid really good money for floating around, but on the upside - when you invest a lot in something you usually try and get your money's worth.

I also get really irritated at the 'please tell me what the perfect trick is' kind of attitude, and with a number of other things.

But - I guess I can't change anyone else. I am, however, in control of how I approach the art - and that's what will count in the long run (for me - but maybe it will rub off on a few others)

I find all of the effects entertaining in their own way.

Experience is being able to tell which is achieved through sleight of hand magic and which is achieved through the magic of TV trickery.

None are trying to entertain magicians, they're all trying to entertain lay people.

I suspect that we all know what we prefer to watch and when. All can give you ideas though on how to develop some of your own presentations.

I also dislike hearing of people who are ripping off for free, items that you have paid for. What sets us apart is that it doesn't stop us still paying out for the next thing that really interests us.