talkmagic.co.uk

I am a very religious person. I personally practice no religion, as i don't feel the need. This is not, however, the reason i am coming to you. I have recently been doing some research (yes, i am 16, and i do research....) with the Demonic bible. It sounds bad, i know, but don't immediately assume it's false, or untrustworthy information.

The demonic bible talks about Magic. it says that a person can control things with his mind. That a person can take what is in his mind, how he sees and believes things, and project it outwards, to make things happen.

For example, if a group of people gets together in the same place every week, and they all believe in the place as the same thing (such as a church, and they believe it is holy) then that place will be what they believe. so since everyone believes it is holy, it IS holy.

It states that magic can not be done from a logical perspective, because that is controlled by your right side of your brain. You must use the left side of your brain, which is the artistic, and fantasy side, to perform magic.

So my question is, if this is true, can magic truely be performed, without smoke and mirror, without any form of trickery, and just by using your brain... perhaps, by tapping into the left side of your brain, and fully detatching from your right side, you can create your own world, and do as you please within it, and by doing so, perhaps even alter the actual world.

To go back to as i was stating about the large groups, let me pose YET ANOTHER theory. (I have many ) The magician always lets it be known the trick he is to perform, so the audience is aware of what he is trying to do. If it is true that a large group of persons believing in one thing, can make things actually happen, who is to say, that if the audience believes he is going to teleport, and the magician believes he is going to teleport, it isn't impossible that he could ACTUALLY do it, in real life, with no props, no smoke and mirrors, no wires, nothing?

Perhaps this is too large of a feit, but who's to say it's not? with enough mental energy being exerted, anything IS possible, is it not?

Again, these are all just some thoughts that have occured to me. I don't even know how true any of it is. Please do forgive my poor punctuation and capitalization, etc. I am typing in a bit of a hurry.

I fear you are opening a very big can or worms with your question in that a greater majority of those involved in theatrical magic do not believe in such things or such abilities, they would tell you that it all boils down to science. Even those that claim to have religious ties tend to host a very serious sense of skepticism that goes just a bit outside the norm.

At 16 you are still stuck in that sphere in which you are trying to formulate your own identity and sadly, dealing with our own spiritual truth tends to be a bit part of that evolution, which can create a great deal of woe; conflicting information at both intellectual and emotional/experiential levels. My advice being that you understand that it is wise to take a lot of the things you read with a small Ukranian Salt Mine until you've researched the whole circumference of said issues. Especially if and when it is material that comes from the more esoteric section of the local book store, most of which is composed so as to appeal to people's fantasies vs. genuine truths surrounding a given topic and thus, take as much of your time and money as possible on a steady basis.

That said, I will part by stating a couple of important things; the Hermetic Laws or Axioms do host a significant amount of truth and you would be doing yourself a great favor to study them vs. the more commercial junk that's out there if this field holds your interest. Start with compositions like the KABALION, A COURSE IN MIRACLES, and even James Redfield's CELESTINE PROPHECY. Know however, the light side of the force does take longer when it comes to getting results, but at the same time, it is a path that lends to us much greater rewards in the long run.

Im not gonna go into this to much as I dont really think this is the right forum for this discussion - but I will say i looked into these subjects myself in the past.

The only comment ill make is that yeah, anythings possible. wasnt long ago scientists KNEW the earth was flat. science was wrong.

Even today some scientific research compliments theories of " real " magic and associated beliefs to a certain degree.

The question is, what will the scientists KNOW tommorow

bored1 wrote:It states that magic can not be done from a logical perspective, because that is controlled by your right side of your brain. You must use the left side of your brain, which is the artistic, and fantasy side, to perform magic.

Can I just point out that it's the other way around.

Thank you for that correction, i admit i was mistaken, and had it bacwards, my apologies.

I would Like to say, however, since it is felt needed to discuss my beliefs. I know i am only 16, and i have several years to learn who i am, and who i want to be, however, at the same time, i know many things about religions, and i do know many things that i probably shouldn't know at my age. I have tried many religions, and quite honestly, i feel no need for any of them. Mr. Browning, i am no ordinary 16 year old. I assure you, what i am reading is in no way for it's fantasies and bliss. I am reading this, to further my knowledge of religions. To be honest, religions are my "hobby." in that I learn about hem, and study them, not to learn who i want to be, but to know things. Knowledge is happiness. However, i will take note of your suggested readings, as they do sound interesting.

Also, Mr. Browning, to quote you for my own reference,

Especially if and when it is material that comes from the more esoteric section of the local book store, most of which is composed so as to appeal to people's fantasies vs. genuine truths surrounding a given topic and thus, take as much of your time and money as possible on a steady basis.

These things, in my opinion most certainly are truths. whether or not others would agree, depends on their own personal beliefs. I most certainly am aware of the fact that most of these readings sound like fantasies, and fictions, yet several billions of people believe that a man parted a great mass of water, or that a man healed the blind. Are these not fantasies?

However, i fear i am running astray from the topic. My question still stands. Is it or is it not possible, knowing that we use merely 12% of our brain, that persons could do "magic" with only their brains? We can love. We can grieve. We can be happy, sad, anxious, i could go on forever. These are all miracles. This is all magic. So if 12% of our brain can do such amazing things, perhaps it truly could do further things? I for one intend to find out.

bored1 wrote:Is it or is it not possible, knowing that we use merely 12% of our brain, that persons could do "magic" with only their brains? We can love. We can grieve. We can be happy, sad, anxious, i could go on forever. These are all miracles. This is all magic. So if 12% of our brain can do such amazing things, perhaps it truly could do further things? I for one intend to find out.

You're going to really hate me now! We do in fact use all of our brain's mass, but only about 10% at any one time, which changes second by second

I didn't realise that Tomo, cheers! Nice bit of dinner party trivia there.

Bored1, have you read The Men That Stare At Goats? Might be right up your street.

Bored1... you aren't just new to this forum, you are obviously new to magic itself and not to sound like the last of the great egotists, you really need to know who you're talking to on certain topics. You see, I happen to have a silly thing known as a Doctorates Degree in Religious History and Philosophy and I'm quite well known within some somewhat literal circles out there, as an elder within the Pagan Community so please be very careful in the position you are trying to hold I so loathe having combat with an unarmed opponent.

Now, in my first post I tried to curb this subject and discourage you from chasing it. The reason is very simple, such themes ALWAYS turn into a "prove it to me" match between the more cynical and the believer. Secondly (as has been pointed out) this topic does not belong in a forum that deals with Stage Magic. Finally, and I don't say this to insult you, but you haven't the life experience yet to know what you're talking about on this topic. Believe me, you are part of the classic demographic looked at by the market research teams of major publishing houses that put out this kind of garbage. Do understand that when I use the term "garbage" I am not attacking your percieved beliefs but simply the fact that the "real" material or "real work" on authentic ritual magick and related issues has never been and never will be handed down in such a haphazard manner; it has always been and will always be oratory e.g. you MUST be an invited part of a group to lean the "real poop" as it were. This however creates its own dichotomy in that 90% of the groups out there are false and little other than a poor attempt at creating some kind of cult that feeds the personal deluions & psyche of its membership.

I STRESS TO YOU this is not said as a slam against your beliefs & perceptions but from the perspective of an experienced, respected and learned elder trying to reach out to a neophyte that's dealing with some issues and realizations.

It is said that "Wicca" is "the way of the wise" and as such it would stand to reason that the followers of this "old way" would not want to look like fools and idiots that percieve things at unrealistic levels. In other words, they live a path that allows for the evolution of learning, perception and understanding in which science and logic is a prime element and superstition as well as folk lore set aside for service in the role it was intended -- amusement and misdirection from the truth.

Now, this is the second time I've tried to be gentle with you on this topic and discourage you from perpetuating it. I strongly suggest that you let it lay so that the dogs don't eat you alive (which will happen if you want to insist on moving down this particular course).... not exactly the way of the wise, now is it?

Mr. Browning, i truly do apologize if you believed i was trying to cause an argument. I in no way intend to dispute what you hold as your beliefs. I am impressed at your knowledge, and background in this subject, even though you were not attempting to impress. I am very thankful for all of the advice I have recieved, from all of you. I have made it clear, i like to learn, so to be corrected, merely teaches me further. By no means do i wish to argue these things with you, as i know i would lose .

But i choose not to follow any set beliefs, but my own. I choose to learn from experience. If it is all fake, then i will have learned my lesson, but if it is not, i will have gotten what i was hoping for. I do still intend to further my readings in all religious subject, and i do understand that the "true" books, are hard, if not impossible, to come by.

I know i am still young, and have many years to go, and many things to learn, but i want to learn as much as i can, as quickly as i can, for as long as i can.

Again, i thank you, Mr. Browning, and I was wondering, being as you seem to have alot of ecperience in these fields, if you wouldn't mind making some further suggestions on reading material, and things of the sort.

Also, Tomo, no i did not know that, but it is good to know
And no Bronz, i have not, but i will take down names of all reading materials, and look into them.

Craig Browning wrote:Now, this is the second time I've tried to be gentle with you on this topic and discourage you from perpetuating it. I strongly suggest that you let it lay so that the dogs don't eat you alive (which will happen if you want to insist on moving down this particular course).... not exactly the way of the wise, now is it?

Bored1 i think you are missing what Mr. Browning is trying to subtly tell you, and thats to not head down this road for all the well put reasons Mr. Browning has just stated in his last 2 posts.

I really think you sould heed his advice becuse he is clearly an expert in this field, and i think he has made a wise decision which i think you are missing.


HOWEVER - i could be the one getting the wronge end of the stick - so if i am can some please tell me so i can correct myself

Bored 1 -- I'll answer a couple of your questions for you first.

READING MATERIALS:
* The Kabalion by the Three Initiates
* Real Magic by P.I. Bonewits
* Modern Magick by Donal Michael Kraig
* 21 Lessons of Merlin (I think that's the right title)
* A Kabala for Modern Times by Gonzalez-Wippler
* A Course in Miracles (Actually Follow the Program)
* As a Man Thinketh by James Allen
* Jonathon Livingston Seagull by R. Bach
* Illusions by R. Bach
* The Celestine Prophecy by J. Redfield

You will find through these ten books, many common ideas that are replicated in all the world's great religions & philosophies (including the Trees of Life & Knowledge found in Kabalistic traditions). Once you begin noticing such common truths, you begin to understand why Jesus, Buddha and others said the rest was just "commentary" -- man placing words into the mouth of the Gods.

Does Magick Really Exist?

Yes, it most certainly does! But, we must understand that much of what our ancestors and those ancient wiseone's that wrote all that philosophical stuff hundreds and thousands of years ago saw such things as fantastic and miraculous or even evil and demonic as the result of ignorance; misinterpretation of the manifestations due to the lack of solid understanding within the individual. It's the same affect that happens when people watch an illusionist float a young lady several feet into the air... it spellbinds them and from their point of view, it was real! It was "real" because they didn't have the "occult" understanding that allows such things to be possible.

I think it is criminal for people to simply expect the world to be black and white; this cynical and rather dogmatic position robs us all of our ability to be enchanted -- stealing away our innocense about life. At the same time, I believe it a carnal sin to walk around blindly and believing you can consciously will an innocent spoon to bend just for the sake of showing off (which is all it is... this is something taught in Budhism when it comes to all these "demonstrations" and "proofs" others do such as foreseeing the future, looking at the past, moving things with the mind, etc.)

Even within the New Testament we see warning against teh whole Prove it to me issue in which humankind wants "proof" of the divine. It just ain't going to happen in that it is a thing that is about 95% FAITH based -- an act of personal investment.

Why 95%?

Because recent research has shown that there could actually be a chemical explanation as to why some people have a higher degree of belief in the supernatural while others have a more critical and scientific perspective. Though the jury is still out, this is something that hosts great probabilty of explanation. Hauntingly however, it also means that it could some day be classified as a kind of "illness" that can be "corrected" via injection or whatever... not exactly something I'd relish when it comes to having personal rights and the freedom to choose.

Anyhow, this should be sufficient food for thought as well as plenty of reading material for you... Oh! You asked about the "forbidden" writings... the deeper secrets associated with the occult world are highly protected and only found within rather ancient Family Clans and certain aspects of the famed Secret Societies that span the earth. You gain access ONLY by invitation. You can get a glimpse of what these teaching are via a visit to the Los Angeles Philosophic Research Society where you'll find one of the most extensive libraries on these subjects, within the continental United States.

Now... as I've said twice already, this is not the kind of thing that's appropriate for discussion on this particular forum. There are plenty of non-theatrical forums that deal with magic and theology where you can bring this up and possibly gain a stronger sense of support than you are going to find here. There are also forums associated with Bizarre Magick as well as Mentalism in which you have a higher percentage of "believers" that you may look into such as the Inner Circle of Bizarre Magick, DragonSkull, the Shadow Network, etc.

Thank you, yet again, Mr. Browning, and i will heed your advice, and drop this subject on this forum. Though if citrus is correct in his assumption, i would like it to be known by all, this is what interests me. others may have learned to leave it alone, but i have no intention of ever doing so. I do, however, believe people have the wrong idea, i am not interested in, Magick, but in all religions, and beliefs. I used to be interested inmagick, and such, but no longer am i. I am purely interested in religions, beliefs, theories, and other things of this sort.

With that in mind, i would like to say, please, no one reply to anything of this topic, as it has been closed by it's author, and i will say there is no need to continue on with it.

Bored1

I still feel that there is some confusion on your part; we talk about stage magic here, not ritual magic or other such things UNLESS (and there's the chance of this) people are relying on such themes and concepts as a mode for presentation.

Please don't think us inhospitable

I do, Mr. Browning, understand this is stage magic; however
I felt that perhaps someone would feel that this idea was an interesting one. I merely posted to see what others thought of my theory. A scientist goes to other scientists when they form a theory, so I decided to seek out the opinions of magicians.

I do understand that logic but sadly few in magic will admit any real study let alone practice of "Magick"... I'm one of the few that will admit it but only because I'm fairly solid in my convictions and know their arguments before they even get started.

I do believe that we can "create" via thought and will, but it's not akin to what you would see on "Charmed" or such programs. Magick happens via natural law and thus, the natural cycles of things. This is one of the reasons so many critics on the subject talk about self-fulfillng prophecy i.e. we put out our will and do what must be done to make it happen. Truth is, that's how it really works.

The "Problem" as I see it, is that we have a lot of people living in a 21st century world still clinging to 14th century ideology; they haven't brought their ideas, perceptions and understanding of what used to be seen as the scientific (the occult) into our present nomenclature and points of view.