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Hi guys,

I'd like to pick your brains a bit, I remember watching a show some years ago in which Penn introduces his partner Teller, and talks us through the steps of him lighting a cigarette, then they reveal that almost every move was faked with sleight of hand.
I loved this routine not only for the lessons in missdirection and sleight of hand, but because it was such a simple and everyday occurance, a man lighting a cigarette.

Anybody remember what the show was?

xenon

xenon_touchstone wrote:Hi guys,
I remember watching a show some years ago in which Penn introduces his partner Teller, and talks us through the steps of him lighting a cigarette, then they reveal that almost every move was faked with sleight of hand.

Why do you want to see that?

That brings me to a related question: Are Penn and Teller like the Masked Magician?
What do you, out there in Magic Land, think about revealing secrets? Everybody here is against stealing tricks from others, so my question is: Is what Penn and Teller do a good thing (getting more people interested in magic) or a bad thing (ruining tricks and shows that magicians perform) ???

Is revealing magic tricks the same as stealing magic tricks?

Here is also an interesting article I stumbled across: http://www.nique.net/issues/2001-11-30/entertainment/5

Great link and great article - thanks!

P&T usually only give away their own secrets or expose their own routines and it's all part of their 'bad boys' persona. They've created a very unique public image and it's served them well for many years. Even though some folks take issue with things they say and do, they're still top box office performers and long may this happy state continue!

It was on "The unpleasant world of Penn and Teller" if I recall correctly.
Aired on the UK several years ago.
Was a 7 or 6 episodes series, which was mostly about re-doing all their known routines they have done on the US at that time, with a few extra new ones (I just loved the "hungry rats" card revelation and the card trick they did with teller holding his breath under water).

I actually like Penn and Teller very much, first because they make magic for magicians and not only layman, secondly because of their great humor.
About the fact they reveal magic secrets here and there, well hard to determine whether it is in good or bad taste, because even thou they do it with great humor and grace they still reveal some secrets and methods (even thou not very common used methods).
They do it for the entertainment, the comedy, but most importantly to make their other non revealed material much stronger.
I remember that Penn said on an interview on TV that most of magic's illusions are like a television set, you don't know how it works, but it still works for a fact, the only deference is that if you ask a technician how the TV work he will usually tell you, but a magician will guard his illusions as a secret at all cost.

I to love p&t but exposing tricks is selfish
They may get laughs and play it for commedy and it may be good entertainment, BUT they don't have any thought for us poor guy's who have to ply our trade in front of drunks or kids who will shout out how methods are done during our shows, even if a drunk shouts out thats easy I saw that on tv explains a method and is wrong what can you do? The only way to prove he is an idiot is to show how you did the trick which you can't.
And if you are at the local rugby club ALL the others will join in with him, not ignore him or tell him to shut up! so your usual put dows or outs will get you into more trouble!:evil:
Easy to do on a TV show, and good for yourselves if you are the only ones doing it, you know the tricks that have been exposed. You can even come back with the attitude that other magicians are too secretive to make yourselves look cool. I'd like to see them perform well if all thier tricks had been told to the audience before the show
Also other up and coming magicians need these so called easy tricks to be their killer trick as they slowly learn and improve. Have p&t forgotten how hard it was for them to get to the top
Sorry did not mean to rant, but from guys who are so good at magic and entertainment to get more quedos from exposure is just lazy. I could be the coolest kids magician in my town if I showed how all my tricks were done after the show. After all if its ok for p&t why can't I do it?

Connor, the only tricks they ever expose are ones they come up with themselves. They're not robbing anyone of a living or showing how some of our favourite tricks are done, they're just showing their abilities as creators of magic, to make illusions that no one has ever thought of, and then explaining how they're done.

Not robbing people of tricks, and not ruining it for the rest of us

EckoZero wrote:Connor, the only tricks they ever expose are ones they come up with themselves. (snip)

Not true EckoZero!
They reveal palming, loading, stealing, switching, misdirection and all kinds of general magic tricks, general moves and diceptions.
They have also showed some stuff they came up wit, but also general stuff.
I have often wondered where the thin line is, between the magicians oath, not to reveal magic - and those that write books or make DVDs, where they reveal tricks that are even based on Vernon, Marlo or other legends.

Yes, they reveal some of the general stuff (and Ecko - they HAVE exposed the workings of cups and balls routines and other standards - but it's still awesome to watch), but given their credentials and incredibly obvious respect for the art, I can hardly say they are truly crossing the line.

Anyone who has read John Bannon's Dear Mr. Fantasy book will know that he reveal the method behind one of the most powerful effects he's come up with WHILE PERFORMING the effect.

As for the magician's oath, gunnarkr - if it was never "broken" you wouldn't be on these boards. None of us would. At some point the secrets have to get out to some people, otherwise the art dies.

If Vernon and Marlo didn't want people using/teaching their methods and effects, I'm PRETTY sure they wouldn't have published them (or allowed them to be published).

dear eckozero
sorry about my rant, bit stong
but I still get annoyed with such talent going for the cheap option of exposure, as for only exposing thier own illusions, I would say that over 90% of stuff out there is old stuff either repackaged for todays audience or an old method being used in another area of magic.
The other day on telly I saw the old turn a silk into an egg trick exposed!!! even showed it from the back!!! then they showed the egg being cracked open and the yolk comming out which was a good if basic trick. BUT WHY EXPOSE THE MIDDLE BIT , I know kids magicians who can't do the last bit and stop their trick at the first egg. can they now risk doing the trick? Just because they are not good enough to do the last switch does not make them bad magicians the kids love their performances.
I can't do card manipulations (well only simple stuff) and I love watching and NOT knowing how those guys do it, they are wonderfull creators of magic. I can see that from the result of the trick, it makes my eyes bulge out
I have a mental block with cards and have to try hard very hard to get what little I can out of them, but I never use a boris wild deck, because little jonnys dad bought him a deck just like it last xmas I like to show my deck to kids before I use them so I dont get asked to examine them during a critical bit of the trick
I will always enjoy Penn and Teller as they are a breath of fresh air, perhaps I should just learn to take the rough with the smooth

I think the magician's oath was not to reveal secrets to the general public, meaning laypersons or non-magicians.

Obviously secrets have to be passed on or the art dies, which is probably the reason for the cavaet in the oath. The problem is that online magic stores make it far easier for the general public to access secrets. Also, unless we want the magic community to be an organization similar to the Masons (where you need to know one to become one), there has to be some level of accessability of some methods to the general public. If I was not able to pick up "The Amature Magician's Handbook" at the local book store back in the mid 1970's I may have never been able to learn.

connor o'connor wrote: BUT WHY EXPOSE THE MIDDLE BIT

That's actually the 'sucker' part of one routine using the silk to real egg. Michael Ammar covers this very well in his books and I believe Firman & Cook did it on TV in one of their programmes from around the world.

Mandrake is right, it is also covered in Geaten Bloom's (hope I spelled it right) TT video. Fooled me the first time I'll tell you that..

But to the other point, you are complaining that they are exposing vague basic magic principles like palming, misdirection, stealing and so on. But the fact is, as a good magician, laymen shouldn't see you doing this even if they are looking for it. If you palm an object, people wont notice it because they know such a thing is possible, they will see it if you do it poorly, and if you do it poorly it doesn't matter if they heard about it or not.
Also P&T stress out to use the most obvious methods for those "revealings". For instance, they showed on one of their shows how to force a card so people can do it at home, but they used one of the simplest obvious forces there is (the count force, I believe that's how it's called). But the thing is, when you present it to a laymen, 90% at least will take that as "if I see this, it means the magician force a card on me, and that's the only way", they won't think that the magician can force it in many ways and at any time.

And if you want a perfect example for this, watch P&T, almost every time they force a card it is the 3 of clubs, and just see how much they do it, even on the same show, and no laymen notice.
On "The unpleasant world of Penn and Teller" they did a force based card trick almost every episode, and sometimes more then once, and even though they actually showed on one of the episodes, how to force a card (and showed it with the 3 of clubs mind you!), no one was the wiser.

Kolisar wrote:I think the magician's oath was not to reveal secrets to the general public, meaning laypersons or non-magicians.

Yes that is exactly correct Kolisar.
The Magician's Oath, in general (wording may vary) is s omething like this:
"As a magician I promise to never reveal the secret of any illusion to a non-magician, without first swearing them to the Magician's Oath. I promise never to perform any illusion for any non-magician, without first practicing the effect until I can perform it well enough to maintain the illusion of magic".
Penn and Teller are showing it on international TV so you might say they are breaking the oath.

Demitri wrote:As for the magician's oath, gunnarkr - if it was never "broken" you wouldn't be on these boards. None of us would. At some point the secrets have to get out to some people, otherwise the art dies.

I agree wholeheartedly Demitri, but usually people interested in magic buy magic starter kits, books, videos and DVDs, if they aren't lucky enough to have a mentor. But what bothers me with Penn and Teller is that they reveal magic to general audience. Not just to those interested in magic, also to the hecklers interested in ruining magic performances and lots of people that aren't really interested. So I can't see that much difference between Penn and Teller on the other hand... and The Masked Magician on the other hand.

And you weren't a non-magician until you started to learn magic?
It's the same deal, if the oath was never broken none of us would be here and the art would have died long long ago.

Has anyone here actually taken a Magician's Oath? Do magic clubs and societies insist that this be part of the admission process? Or is it all a nice totally mythical idea to trot out as and when it suits us ?