Tuition Centre(Basics only)

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Re: cost money?

Postby seige » Nov 21st, '06, 15:21



G3ck0 wrote:This forum should actually be named 'lets not talk magic' or 'recomend magic books'


Actually, we were thinking of renaming it 'Go away if you're narrow minded, freeloading, immature or intellectually backward regarding ethics, tradition and secrecy'.

G3ck0 wrote:Magic shouldn't cost any money! Knowledge shouldn't cost any money! This is why libraries we're created.

Whether you like it or not the internet is the biggest library in existance. If TM won't depart the slightest bit of knowledge...not even the basics then I and many others will look elsewhere. In my opinoin TM should change their policy. A forum such as this could be so much more.


The sooner that freeloaders such as yourself DO leave the forum, the happier and tidier that GENUINE forum 'asset' members will find the place. Magic is still a strong 'secret' community, and genuine magician's don't give their secrets away.

If you think knowledge shouldn't cost money, go out and ask your local school/college to put you through education for free.

Fool.

Last edited by seige on Nov 21st, '06, 15:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: cost money?

Postby Tomo » Nov 21st, '06, 15:26

G3ck0 wrote:Magic shouldn't cost any money!

Why?

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Postby Mandrake » Nov 21st, '06, 15:57

I'm very interested in limited edition Porches but I don't have enough money. Does that mean it's OK to steal one?

And as for 'free' libraries, where do you think the books come from? Taxpayers and ratepayers pay for them - in other words they cost money. Magic is no different and we have little time for yet another thread on how magic should be free just because someone says they can't afford to buy it. If you're serious in your pursuit of magic then why not do as just about everyone else has done since Magic was first invented - save up, get a job, earn some cash and then you'll really appreciate the magic you buy because it has a value.

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Postby JackWright » Nov 21st, '06, 20:34

Mandrake is, unfortunatley(or fortunatley?), right.

Although G3ck0 has some good points, his answer really is in what he is saying; the internet is the world's biggest library and therefore finding the kind of information which most of us here would feel morally right exposing really isn't too hard. Again, this argument, like many others, comes down to whether people feel exposing secrets should be allowed, and in what context. Is there really any harm in teaching people what is meant by 'cutting the deck' and so on? it's really just a matter of opinion I suppose. Unfortunatley, however, there will always be people who try and push limits and therefore the idea of a tuition section(however simple), in practicality, will never work. Nice idea though.
The magical fraternity is a 'secret' community and until people start being too lapsed it will stay that way.

I would reccomend RRTCM 100% for the beginner by the way.

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Re: cost money?

Postby IAIN » Nov 22nd, '06, 09:15

G3ck0 wrote:Magic shouldn't cost any money! Knowledge shouldn't cost any money! This is why libraries we're created.


We are created? next time you're in a library, get a dictionary...

Knowledge should and does cost money, as well as time and effort...do you not understand the simple principle behind it all; that all theses pro's who produce dvds and books don't just do it out of the goodness of their heart do they? How are they to earn a crust?

Don't they deserve to charge for their creativity and thoughts? I would also ask, what the hell have you EVER contributed to the magic community? apart from whine about having to pay money to LEARN something. that is...

alot of us aren't pro's...we love magic that's all...we share tips with each other, in the uncannily entitled support & tips section, but don't reveal how things are done...we share our own routines with each other too, that we came up with ourselves...that we don't want some snivelling little beast like you to hawk around...

you lot make me rather venomous and angry y'know...

whinging about having to save up, to work at something...i guess you just want everything in an instant easy download e-book...though you could quite possibly write one on how to be an annoying little cheapskate @rsehole...

please go away...

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Postby David R. » Nov 24th, '06, 08:12

I have a feeling I am going to regret this reply later but it is my personal opinion and you do not have to agree with it.

I am not a freeloader in any way what-so-ever and am not asking for magic to be free in my following response.


I believe that knowledge should be free and that if someone wants to learn something and is willing to become deditcated to it then he should not be denied that urge for knowledge just by the fact that they cannot afford it. I cannot come up with many witty things to say right now as for some reason, no matter how strongly I feel about this I cannot find many things to justify this but I will state a few general statements.

1) What if YOU all of a sudden became broke and had to give up on of your most treasured activities if not even your Job?
2) What if everyone that is big right now in magic had not had the money to start out in magic?
3) What if Houdini grew up in a 2 room shack with barely enough money to feed himself and his family? What would magic as a whole be today if this was the case?

If someone has an interest in something, he should not be denied the education for it no matter their level in society. I am not saying however that a millionaire should not pay, but that someone who cannot afford another activity but truely wants to learn it and devote themselves to it.

I do not want to start a "flame-war" here (or anywhere) but this is one of my strong opinions I have had all of my life and had to put it on here. As a kid I have been blessed with growing up in a middle class family and the ability to save and spend my money wisely to a point where I can save up for almost everything I buy. I am blessed with good money management skills in general and also logic in how to make money (ask parents for a "poop scooper" walk dogs, save money, spend on magic, use magic to make money for more magic. I, fortunately, did not have to make my money that way as my parents give me an allowance based on my grades and since my grades are always A's and B's *also known as 4's and 5's* money for magic has usually not been an issue). However I realize that there are people around me, and people I have never met and will never meet, that have a true interest in magic that will never be able to express it because of their limitations with money. I hold an opinion that that is wrong and that they should be given ways around their social status to be able to learn magic despite their income.

Once again, I am not trying to start a flame-war and am just posting my personal opinions. You do not have to agree with them, I am just putting them out there.

~David

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Postby IAIN » Nov 24th, '06, 09:53

everyone's entitled to their own opinions

1) What if YOU all of a sudden became broke and had to give up on of your most treasured activities if not even your Job?
Honestly? i'd still do whatever it took to earn myself some money...infact i have in the past, i sold my precious guitars to support someone dear to me and worked 2 jobs...and i sold a collection of records that i loved (which was going to be a semi-retirement fund in my old age)
2) What if everyone that is big right now in magic had not had the money to start out in magic?
Then im pretty sure they would of worked hard to obtain what they needed and wanted to without the need to expect it for nothing...
3) What if Houdini grew up in a 2 room shack with barely enough money to feed himself and his family? What would magic as a whole be today if this was the case?
I think Houdini pretty much did do the above...thats why his family moved from eastern europe (i think - his last name was really weiss wasnt it?) to the USA...and dont forget, if the stories are true, Houdini wasnt especially famous for being a magician as such, more an escapologist and spiritualism debunker....

Overall though, pinching stuff, wanting secrets (and they are so for a reason) all for free is a bit off to say the least...for most people, especially some (and only some) of the younger types just want to learn it to be seen as "cool"...there's plenty of things other than magic to achieve that if thats what they want...

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Postby Tomo » Nov 24th, '06, 10:54

David R. wrote:I believe that knowledge should be free and that if someone wants to learn something and is willing to become deditcated to it then he should not be denied that urge for knowledge just by the fact that they cannot afford it.

I'm just going to repeat this one last time and see if it sticks:

Magic is not open source.

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Postby IAIN » Nov 24th, '06, 11:54

just a thought on the "knowledge shoule be free" idea - so, if i wanted to learn any skill, i shouldn't have to pay for it? no one has a right to charge for teaching anyone something?

so, i wouldnt have to pay to learn how to drive, speak another language, quantum physics? it just doesn't make practical sense...

each to their own, but the reality of the statement just doesn't stand up in my opinion...not in this world anyway... :)

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Postby David R. » Nov 24th, '06, 12:27

Tomo wrote:
David R. wrote:I believe that knowledge should be free and that if someone wants to learn something and is willing to become deditcated to it then he should not be denied that urge for knowledge just by the fact that they cannot afford it.

I'm just going to repeat this one last time and see if it sticks:

Magic is not open source.



I laughed a little at that comparison :D.

I'm not saying neccessarily free nor am I talking about the "big" secrets, I am talking about enough to get someone on their feet. I would love to see if libraries would carry Mark Wilson's Complete Course, 13 Steps, Art of Astonishment, Bobo's, and a few others just to give enough out for "free" as to actually get them started, get them out to a point where they can support their magic with magic. I am not saying that people like David Blaine should recieve Banachek's secrets for no cost nor am I saying that Houdini should have given away his secrets at the end of every show; what I mean by this is that if someone is interested, we could at least try to give them enough to get them on their feet like we would do with anything else. If your son wants to be a mechanic then you would buy him a few books and maybe give him a quick lesson or two, just enough to get him started to a point where he can support his own ambitions. If your daughter wanted to be a fashon designer you would buy her a few fashion books, some thread, needles, enough to have her know how to make a shirt that she can sell and using the money buy more books with more advanced techniques. The same should be with magic; to get more people interested in this art we need more people to be able to pick it up. Let them get a copy of Bobo's at the library and Mark Wilson's Complete Course and if you're dedicated and practice you now have enough general magic to call yourself a magician and enough "specialization" in coins to be able to call yourself a coin magician when presenting yourself somewhere. Now a newcomer with virtually no money can be hired for a very cheap show. They are hired for a free show and slowly but surely they get a call and they charge $20, then another $20, and another and a few more and now buy a more technical book and get more involved into magic. Now they are more experienced and start charging $30 bucks a show, they do more and more shows and then they buy some more single tricks and some more books, eventually joing the IBM, buying more tricks, and now they are known through-out the United States. We have now added a great magician just becuase someone who was truely interested had enough to get on their feet. Now what if they didn't have access to these books? They come home from watching someone perform magic outside and really want to learn how to be able to do the impossible so they check out their library but they do not find any books. They use the public computer in the library to search for magic and find that a book costs $40, they become dissapointed and sad as they cannot afford such a book. Not only that, but now magic as a whole has lost another potential "Houdini".

Honestly? i'd still do whatever it took to earn myself some money...infact i have in the past, i sold my precious guitars to support someone dear to me and worked 2 jobs...and i sold a collection of records that i loved (which was going to be a semi-retirement fund in my old age)


There is a slight difference here, you had known they were dear to you, therefore giving you reason to do so. You knew what to expect therefore had the reason to give something up. If you had just come home from a magic show or just seeing someone perform outside you will be interested right away in magic and want to find out more about it, but since you have seen what the spectator sees and not the secret, you do not know if what you are about to give up is actually worth what you are getting in return. It is like seeing a beautiful woman somewhere and going on a blind date later, you have to give up everything you own for a *CHANCE* that she might be worth it; would you risk everything for that? Yes, a select few would, but most would only after getting a "taste" of what it is like. Only when you know what to expect will you be willing to give up everything for a love. The same goes for everything in life, including magic, and maybe we would have more people enjoying the art of magic, performing and enjoying, if it was more accessible. That might make things harder for performers, more hecklers *possibly* but if more people enjoy the art, who are studying and have had to deal with at least one heckler themselves, might not heckle someone else. This whole thing could go one way or another, but still, only people with a true interest would have access to these books. True, more people would know secrets, but the fact is that only people with an interest in magic would know about them, it would promote "magic awareness", and it would keep us from loosing potentially extremely valuable future magicians.

Again, this is just my 2 cents on this. Maybe I have gone a little over-board when it comes to saying making it avaliable in libraries. But if you talk to someone either in real life, or on a forum; get to know them well enough that you know that they truely have an interest in magic; why not send them or let them borrow a book or two of yours?

Sorry for the very length response,
~David

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Postby David R. » Nov 24th, '06, 12:29

abraxus wrote:just a thought on the "knowledge shoule be free" idea - so, if i wanted to learn any skill, i shouldn't have to pay for it? no one has a right to charge for teaching anyone something?

so, i wouldnt have to pay to learn how to drive, speak another language, quantum physics? it just doesn't make practical sense...

each to their own, but the reality of the statement just doesn't stand up in my opinion...not in this world anyway... :)



Someone teaching you another language, quantum physics, or how to drive should not be free, but manuals, books, "teach yourself in 20 days" languages, things that can get you rolling in the right direction, should be free.

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Postby Tomo » Nov 24th, '06, 12:31

David R. wrote:Someone teaching you another language, quantum physics, or how to drive should not be free, but manuals, books, "teach yourself in 20 days" languages, things that can get you rolling in the right direction, should be free.

Surely it's up to the person who wrote them whether they're free or not, not than the person who wants to know what's in them?

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Postby IAIN » Nov 24th, '06, 12:46

yeah, again, i think David you are moving away from the point that got us all a little tetchy with the geko postee - it was kinda implied that sleights and such should be given away for free...

and if you were to write a book - put time and effort into it, would you honestly give it for nothing? if you say yes, i double-dare you to go and spend 2 years of your life creating the idea firstly - putting it all together, finding an agent, a publisher and editor...then getting it out there, and all the other stuff inbetween...

i reckon (if you hadnt died of starvation first) you would want to make some money from it!

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Postby Mandrake » Nov 24th, '06, 13:25

The real issue is that G3ck0 was mistaken in his undertstanding of what TM is all about and when we made him aware of it he decided to argue that his point of view was the only one worth considering and backed it up with flimsy and flawed arguments. The same tired arguments we've heard here many times before. One of his posts in this respect was deleted completely. It has nothing to do with what happens elsewhere, be it other Magic forums, libraries or whatever. TM doesn't condone giving away secrets and never will do. If G3ck0 had stopped to think he would have realised that he was just in the wrong place and would be happier somewhere else where secrets are given away for nothing.

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Postby David R. » Nov 24th, '06, 19:36

Oh, this is my mistake. I read the first few posts and then the last one, missing this person's completely. I now see why everyone wrote what they did above my post and completely agree with how this person was responded to. My opinions however stay :wink: but I now understand why what was said, was said.

My apologies,
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