talkmagic.co.uk

No because it's not YOUR secret to sell. Yes, selling them DOES protect the secret from curiosity-seekers. Not many people without a real interest to learn are going to spend £30 on a book to find out some secrets.

It's not so much about copyright as it is Intellectual Property - so unless you were to put a DVD up exactly as it was (i.e. a straight rip) you're unlikely to get in to trouble - but ethically and morally it is the wrong thing to do as you are stealing from the creators.

But then, I may be wrong about the legal bit too .

Ok, but I have a number of books; all of which the authors surely didn't originate the tricks or obtain rights to any intellectual property. They are selling how magic is done. Bottom line to me. Right or wrong, up for discussion. But are they open to legal claim? Can my group learn and perform legally. Not do or die stuff here, but discussion with the group over a few beers.

Jet Star wrote:Well, is it ok for me to take every performance I know and put it on the internet for people to buy? Not protecting the secrets that way, unless you are going to say "if you have copyright, it's your priviledge". Which brings me back to the original question. Also, it looks like conflicting reasoning to say protect secrecy, but it's ok to sell.

Selling magic is a way of getting it out to those that are interested enough in learning to use it, and expensive enough for them to value its secrets, while keeping it from those that just want to know them because they want to know. I hope you can understand where I'm coming from on that. If you're going to buy an effect and sell your own version, you're headed for a world of trouble from the guys (sometimes heavy guys) who sell it via the big distributors. It's a big money game when you get into commercial magic, and you will get very badly out of shape very quickly.

I think Jet Star has risen some interesting points.

Let's take for example the ID. Now I don't know who invented it (I don't know if any of you do or not, I'd be interested to know though), but how many companies have sold this trick? I doubt the one I bought it from was the original creator of the trick.

While I say this, I am of course not advocating the revealing of secrets, but it can leave some with the attitude of "well if the maunfacturer has ripped it off then I can" sort of thing.

Also take Paul Zenon's Street Magic book. He explains what a TT is (he did not invent it), he explains how cigarette through coin works etc. etc. So why would it be wrong to tell a friend? As I've said, I don't think it's right to reveal the secrets but I think Jet Star has a good point. Of course it would only apply to "old classics" rather than modern stuff, but sellers of magic get away with revealing old magic for a price. It is not their secret, they have bought it and are selling it on again.

I think I've made my point. I'm not sure if there is much anyone can say to this though...

...it is just one of those things.

Jet Star wrote:Moderator, I see that this is more likely suitable for the miscellaneous section. Please move if appropriate.

WooHoo! at last someone has bothered to read the sticky, thanks!

With regard to the topic, it is usually not considered a hienous crime to sell a tutorial video or book on an old classic if you have added something to it, or improved on the teaching of those that have gone beofre. If you haven't then reviews on fora like this will, most likely, damage your sales.

stephenmagic wrote:When you purchase an effect you also have the rights to perform it in public.

Not *strictly* true.

Some authors require permission to be asked for public performance!

yes, i stand corrected, there are some examples of that and some effects have TV rights reserved.

Following this thread with interest, I wanted to mention this earlier, but was one foot out the door...

There's a word which describes the difference between sharing a music CD with your pals, or sharing magic secrets: the word is Respect.

When/if you attain working professional status, and/or you're a writer/creator, you PERFORM to laypeople (as a whole) and you SHARE with other magicians.

Magic books and DVDs in general are sold under the unwritten rule that they are being bought by people interested in, and therefore respectful of magic.

There are two (important) things which keep magic alive: trust (amongst fellow magi) and secrecy.

The trust issue defines the whole respect thing... the writers/creators of the material which we learn from TRUST that their secrets, which they are sharing, are kept within the magic fraternity. Out of respect, other magicians WILL KEEP THIS TRUST. Why? Because, magicians know that without the trust, new and exciting secrets won't get passed on. And magicians who create and write will simply give in, as their work is being shared outside the 'circle of trust'. Respect is lost, and so is new and old magic.

The secrecy issue should be obvious... magic is an artform based on the unexpected, the impossible and the intangible. What keeps it alive as an artform is that because 'laypeople' in general do NOT know the secrets, they are amazed and baffled by the performances.

If we all shared magic openly, and without respect for the *artform*, we'd soon find that the layperson is desensitized, and the artform would falter. There would be no magic, as the secrets are revealed. Ergo, the secrecy is broken, and so is the circle of trust. Resulting in a loss of the artform.

Sounds a little like a speech—'the apocalypse of magic'? Well, frankly, this is where it's headed. Over the last 15 years I've seen a steadily accelerating decline in effort amongst new magicians.

If half of the newbies put as much effort into LEARNING magic before wanting to get something for nothing and share what little knowledge they had, then they would RESPECT and APPRECIATE what I've spoken about here.

Food for thought, I'm sure.

I am interested in the last post, what do you mean 'effort' of new magicians?
do you think it is too easy to buy tricks that require no skill, or are you talking about, the new-comers to magic not reading enough to become competent and putting the books down once they have found out the secret.

I think too much is made of the 'secrecy of tricks', especially on this website!, if i was learning from books it would take a stupid amount of time to learn things that, if i was shown by another magician, i could learn in one day.

Maybe thats the point! I hear you cry, but maybe its not!!...i don't think the sharing of secrets will cause the 'apocalypse of magic' i think poor magicians who rely on the 'tried and tested' methods and are not creative enough( or dare i say it ) 'in touch' enough to create something new and exciting will cause the 'apocalypse of magic'- hence the huge fear that someone will reveal how to p**m a card or reveal other sleights.

If your a good performer it wont matter...you will have all heard the "well...i was watching your hand the whole time" - NO THEY WERENT! That's the point...i think people worry because they CANNOT perform...there are SO MANY magicians i have met who learn tricks and the standard patter and its cringeworthy to watch (its still have interesting to lay people i suppose)..but THESE are the magicians who should be worried..and im glad they are.

there are too many people like this because there is such a reluctance to teach...there seems to be an attitude of "well if you want to learn..your on your own...until you prove yourself by reading royal road or watching daryl dvd's"

I mean COME ON! Magic NEEDS more than any other artform, for people to come in and shake it up a bit - it needs characters..not people who re-inforce the stereotype of a magician -ie " a loser who has had nothing else to do but play with cards, and who is (i have to say it) a geek.

Has anyone here started with Royal Road...for example the Overhand shuffle control starts "take the third phalanx of the second and third fingers ..." - give me a break..people shouldn't have to waste time learning the hard way JUST to prove themselves before magicians are able to teach them anything or offer advice.

Stop being so worried about someone finding out what a bloody DL is or what an ITR is or a pass or a palm! - calling someone a loser because he shares with other learners is an absolute disgrace ! - People who show a genuine interest should be embraced and the snobbish fear of some magicians really needs to be got rid of.

I am in no way saying we advertise how tricks are done and share it to everyone who wants to know...but generally the person who will be asking will have a genuine interest. Would they buy a book, try and find a magic website, or the local circle, if they weren't? - so we should as magicians embrace these poeple demonstrate things and tell them to practice..then they will spend an hour practicing rather than an hour reading a book or watching a dvd.

I think the point is that other magicians and myself can talk in a pub about magic freely and openly and no-one else understands a bloody word.

For example even if they hear the words DL and you tell them you are going to do a DL in a trick...if you do it well enough they won't know when you did it..and EVEN if they shout at you when you do it...you could do the KM move and dispose...there are always ways out. - any good performer would know that.

So please....go easy on some people who are asking genuine questions and are keen to learn, don't all gang up on them and call them names and say they are stupid for even "thinking" that we will reveal.

They are not the anti-christ, they are not bad people, and worst of all it portrays everything i hate in magic. Please take the the advice of Doc Eason "DON'T BE A JERK"

king_of_keighley wrote:I think too much is made of the 'secrecy of tricks', especially on this website!, if i was learning from books it would take a stupid amount of time to learn things that, if i was shown by another magician, i could learn in one day.

Maybe thats the point! I hear you cry, but maybe its not!!...i don't think the sharing of secrets will cause the 'apocalypse of magic' i think poor magicians who rely on the 'tried and tested' methods and are not creative enough( or dare i say it ) 'in touch' enough to create something new and exciting will cause the 'apocalypse of magic'- hence the huge fear that someone will reveal how to p**m a card or reveal other sleights.

Just to clarify... are you talking about marketed effects or basic moves such as the DL here?

If it's the former then it's more to do with a moral viewpoint. If it's the former, I kinda get what you mean.

There is more than one issue and getting them confused is part of the reason these discussions seem to get very confused (IMHO).

First, there's the legal issue of copyright. Can you disseminate the information legally? In many cases, if you put it into your own words, yes. It would depend upon the wording used in the book or product you've bought, but my understanding is that the idea cannot be copyrighted.

In some cases, a magician may only be given the right to use the effect himself and not give it to others, or even to sell the manuscript (I think I've seen that one, but I might be wrong). There are definitely ones that reserve performance rights, especially on TV.

Second, even if there is a legal issue, it might not be realistic to expect to be caught, or prosecuted/sued. You might not be breaching the copyright laws, but passing on information that the author wanted kept secret (or at least, wanted to get paid for).

This is a matter of respect. It's a matter of patience. It also involves understanding that you can't have everything you want all the time. If you can't afford a certain pair of trainers, you don't steal them. You save your money and get what you want.

Or, you nip down the market and buy a rip-off. Unlike trainers, what you get is something intangible with magic. You get the secret. You can get that from the original or from a knock-off. If all you care about is secrets, especially if you want stuff even if it's screwing the person who created it, you aren't much of a magician, as far as I am concerned.

The third issue is stuff that is so widely-known in magic that there's no real 'official version'. There must be hundreds of tricks that fall into this. Who invented the three shell game? Three card monte? The ID? Chinese Sticks? Even where the creator is known, it's often someone who's no longer in a position to benefit. These things have passed into the magicians' general knowledge.

My personal view is that it's no great shame to share these things with fellow magicians. They still shouldn't be for public consumption. However, part of the fun of magic is seeing something amazing and wanting something isn't a bad thing. Again, a lot of magicians equate the power of magic with the secrets and that's only part of the story. Is it a terrible thing if a magician were to be amazed at the ID? Do we have to know it all?

I am personally not a fan of magicians lending each other brand new books and DVDs. The creators deserve the money. Other people who've paid for the works have them devalued (arguably), by people who've not paid anything other than letting their mate have a read of a different book.

Yes, magic is expensive. Yes, it's good to share advice and experience. However, I think that revealing new material to anyone (even magicians) for free runs the risk of cheapening its worth and definitely does the creators out of their just reward. If it's your material, knock yourself out and tell who you like. If it's the product of someone else's hard work, think about them.

There are many, many widley-known (by magi) items that can be discussed in magicians' groups, without screwing Kenton, or Daryl, or even Craig Browning! Discuss ID handlings, or ACR variations, or even the paper balls, but cherish the information others have worked hard to produce.

On the other hand, there are even bits that I think can be told to the public safely. The best examples I can think of are both from Penn and Teller. One is their clear cups and balls, where it looks like they're spoiling a magical classic, but in fact I came away still not knowing how they'd done the routine, in spite of knowing a fair bit about cups and balls! They show how it's done, but in a way that you don't come away knowing how it's done.

The other is the routine where Teller 'lights' a 'cigarette' with a 'lighter', when he's actually using a small torch on a pen. They explain magician's techniques, but without ever giving the audience a clue as to how or when these things are done, even within Teller's performance. In another context, a lay person (or a magician) might not realise what was going on, even using the same moves.

Sorry for such a long post. I didn't even cover everything I thought about!

Just a thought.

Where does the Masked Magician stand in all of this. He reveals tricks as if they were child's play.

Valentino claimed that he was exposing methods to encourage new ideas.

Some people say that he just got hit with a huge tax bill and had to get cash fast.

The truth is possibly somewhere between those two.

However, it's true that he often did not expose the most effective working of a trick.

While I haven't seen it, I've heard the one exposing street magic was potentially a lot more damaging than the Masked Magician ones.

Frankly, who cares what any one performer thinks? If the Masked Magician jumped off a bridge...there'd be a lot of happy illusionists.

The street magic one exposed the raven, and stuff like the center tear, psychokinetic time and stuff liek that. It was quite bad, but I don't think people really remember what they saw these days. It's been and gone, while it's fresh it can do some damage but if the tricks are done well and it's in a real setting (ie not on tv) then specs will still believe really...

Interesting topic.
Similar to this discussion here.
My opinion is that if you crave the secrets of magic and want to learn it, you should be able to find it, e.g. in Magic Shops where you buy books, DVDs, different tricks etc. You pay for it, because sometimes magicians have been developing their tricks and ideas for years.

But in my view, guys like Penn & Teller (yes, they have exposed traditional magic, not belonging to them) and The Masked Magician are crooks. They should not reveal magic on national TV broadcasts. The average Joe should not see a magic trick revealed on a Saturday night show, just because he wanted to relax and watch something on TV, without even being interested in knowing anything about magic tricks.

And what is going on with all those video-websites. All the dead serious 12 13 year olds on YouTube (and similar ones) that post tricks and then they expose it, like they are making a tutorial for PenguinMagic or Ellusionist. Some of those dudes even credit the creators. But those little videoguys are also crooks. I don't understand why nobody is responsible for this theft. Mind you, there are even original PenguinMagic and Ellusionist tutorial vids, (featuring Oz Perlman or Brad Christian), ripped and posted on those sites. This is just wrong.

Ergo: I think those that are truly interested should be able to find what they seek - if they pay for it, it should not be catapulted over the general public.

- - -

PS. One question to Jet Star: Why don't you pop into the Introduction forum and do the proper thing, and introduce yourself?