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When I first started learning magic, I saw a performance of the ID. I know there is already an ungimmicked version out there, but I was wondering if anyone has tried doing this effect by verbally forcing a card. If so, how were the reactions?

Why would you want to bother doing that, and making the trick more complicated than it needs to be. The ID is a fantastic trick and anyone that owns one will totally agree with me (I think)

If you tried to verbaly force a card there would be no gaurantee that the speccy would pick the card you tried to make them pick. With the ID you will get it right 100% of the time.

there is a "kinda like it" effect..."Brainweave" by Alex Elmsley i think it is... the magi shows the spec some cards then turns away while the spec chooses one of the shown cards...magi turns round and does a fan showing the faces of all the cards..spec names his card and the magi shows one card back to front...specs card

True, but this way you wouldn't have to carry the gimmick around with you and this could be done with a borrowed deck. Once you get good at it, the verbal force has a very high success rate. And if it does go wrong, you simply patter your way out.

the brainweave is ungimmicked by the way

Just do Paul Harris's version of it; the name escapes me at the moment, but it's in Volume One of Art of Astonishment. It's not quite as fair but close enough.

the_mog wrote:the brainweave is ungimmicked by the way

Sorry, I didn't see your post. I was reffering to the ID. I'll look into the brainwave effect.

its "brainweave"..not brainwave..which is a gimmicked deck

Cardza wrote:Just do Paul Harris's version of it; the name escapes me at the moment, but it's in Volume One of Art of Astonishment. It's not quite as fair but close enough.

I believe the name is, Invisible Rising Card.

leighton wrote:Why would you want to bother doing that, and making the trick more complicated than it needs to be. The ID is a fantastic trick and anyone that owns one will totally agree with me (I think)

If you tried to verbaly force a card there would be no gaurantee that the speccy would pick the card you tried to make them pick. With the ID you will get it right 100% of the time.

But by employing the risk into your magic, if right the outcome is much greater than that of a normal ID, what if you want the deck to be examined, or if you are like me and only use normal decks of cards?

Even if you don't get it right it doesn't matter, mistakes in magic are prefectly accectable.

I agree the ID is a very powerful trick, but I'm not the kind of guy who will carry around lots of different decks, I mean think about it the ID is one deck that does one trick?, a regular deck can do the ID and all the more.

Those who have read Derren Brown's "Pure Effect", will know that risks can make magic more powerful, and this book includes his verbal and mental forces, they aren't 100% sucessfull, but as a performer you should be able to make these risks and wriggle out of them if you don't get it right.

The other thing that comes down to risks is who you are performing to, its not exactly for everyone, its the kind of audience who are ready, warmed up and will take the magic seriously.

I have a few version of doing the ID completely impromptu. At one point I thought about writting a little e-book about it. Never did though.

You can do verbal forcing if you like. You can do many different types of forcing. But it is very hard to do any kind of forcing with cards or verbally that feels completely fair. If a magician runs you through a string of events to find a certain card to be yours... why is his conditions the "fair" conditions? I think this is a subconscious part of a spectators attitude that keeps the trick a trick. Maybe an impressive and unanswerable one, but still a trick.

It reminds me once when I had a magician friend over who had an ID. I innocently had a deck of cards in its case on the table. I said, "Hey, think of a card. Don't tell me it, but change it to a new one if you like. Change it again. " Interestingly enough... when HE took the deck and pulled out the cards only 1 was face up.

Too this day, every time I see him the first words out of his mouth are... "HOW DID YOU..."

The answer is quite simple. And anyone who studies enough of Kneppers work will probably eventually figure it out.

I'm not one for taking risks - I think I perform better, in all senses, when there isn't a voice somewhere in my head whispering, 'This could fall on its backside, you know.' I also don't think psychological forces are much use - you can, IMHO, increase the likelihood of something by, say, 10%, but that's all. Few of us are Derren Brown, yet even D Brown's Three of Diamonds force, done by D Brown, will fail far more frequently than it'll succeed. Really, you're better off just betting on probability (ask someone to think of a card - 'But, to make it harder, not the Ace of Spades or the Queen of Hearts or something like that - make it an unusual card.' - and they will think of the Seven of Clubs far more often than a random 1/52 chance would allow. That probability is stronger than suggestion (that's to say, if you try to psychologically force the Eight of Diamonds, for example, and I do nothing but bet on the Seven of Clubs, I reckon I'll win more often). And, either way, having your whole effect rely on such hit and miss thing is no place I'd want to be.

However, you can put yourself in a no-lose situation by attempting to psychologicall force with Kolossal Killer as back up (generally, the cards are lying quietly on the table in the packet when you do the ID effect - they are only part of the trick if you say they are).

Not no-lose (and not quite the same as ID), but stacking the odds far, far more in your favour, and using someone else's, shuffled deck that you never touch at any point, is K.E.N.T.
http://www.alakazam.co.uk/acatalog/Mentalism_20.html
(Third one down.)

One final point, there's something that I feel is an incredibly powerful subtlety: do any one of Lord knows how many standard 'pick a card' tricks, but, instead of saying, pick a card, say (I like to add, gravely, 'and this is very important') you want the spec to think of a card, without looking at the pack. 'Think of the card first... then go through the pack and take it out.' Mention that, as they've looked through the pack finding their card, they've seen it is a full pack where all the cards are different - fan the cards yourself to re-emphasise this (this is, of course, blather, but does suggest a reason for the spec having removed their card from the pack). Have the spec return the card to the pack (that's in your hands now, obv.), and away you go. As far as the spec is concerned, they did just 'think of a card'.

Sexton Blake wrote:Really, you're better off just betting on probability (ask someone to think of a card - 'But, to make it harder, not the Ace of Spades or the Queen of Hearts or something like that - make it an unusual card.' - and they will think of the Seven of Clubs far more often than a random 1/52 chance would allow.

Funnily enough, as I read that the Seven of Clubs popped in to my head .

never touch at any point, is K.E.N.T.

K.E.N.T. is an excellent little bit which I reviewed here on TalkMagic a while back now.

the_mog wrote:its "brainweave"..not brainwave..which is a gimmicked deck

oops. Sorry. I was a little sleepy when I read your post.

Cardza wrote:Funnily enough, as I read that the Seven of Clubs popped in to my head.

Apparently, though 7C is the most common choice - by some small, but significant margin - for lay people, it's far more the most common choice for magicians asked to think of a random, unobvious card.

Didn't know you'd reviewed K.E.N.T. - I'll pop over and have a look.

For what it is worth, I have about a 80% success rate with verbal forces. When you do a verbal force it is very important what syntax you use with your speech. One wrong word can easily botch it. It is also something that must be done with care, and not at just any random time to any random person you see fit. That doesn't mean though that I only do it twice a year either. But if you are trying to do this for a person who isn't give you 100% attention, you drop your rate from 80-90% to about 40-50%.

And I think there are other cards much easier than the 3D.