talkmagic.co.uk

Having signed up to Talkmagic, I fully agree with the Terms & Conditions demanded of us especially what may appear to be rather harsh terms on the sale of magical items on the board. At once it raises a situation that has recently arisen.
At a recent convention I saw demonstrated a very nice pocket effect. Something different and away from the usual card effects so I bought it and, as frequently happens, discovered at once that it was just not practical for myself. It my age you see (or can’t see as I explain later).

What you received were nice props and very well made. A very subtle handling and suggested routine. Now I still liked the basic effect so created props of my own in no way similar to the purchased items. The method I chose to use was using totally different, ‘touch’ rather than ‘sight’ as in the original. Then, as we should all do, devised an alternative routine to suit my personality. What I have retained is part of the subtle secret.

I am pleased with my creation but I now in hand the original item as purchased from the dealer. Apart from taking the items from the packet absolutely unused. So the question is. Is it ethical to sell this very good item on this board?

Some might say that, as I have created something almost new even though I have used part of another’s subtle secret, then I could market it. Be assured that I have no intention in doing this but it’s all worth discussing.
Let’s hear your thoughts.
Mark

i think its as basic as this: rules are rules...

whether i agree with them personally, is well..personal...

someone somewhere was kind enough to set this up, and not charge me for joining - i get advice, sharing of ideas and suggestions...

so, if i felt that strongly about certain elements of how this place is run, i would just delete my profile and not use it...

alternately, i would just flog my goods on e-bay if i felt my morals were that way inclined...

I am not quite sure of the tone of voice here... even the title of the thread leaves me cold.

What you are basically asking boils down to this analogy:

Man buys trick, duplicates trick (albeit with tweaks), man re-sells duplicate trick as his own creation

Quite frankly, I would say you've answered your own question. Basically you've admitted the fact that you've essentially 'cloned and improved' the original.

Not surprisingly, I don't think you'll get many positive comments on this issue.

Good to get some replies to my first posting to create interest. You will note that I said that in no way would I attempt to sell my own creation. Needless to say the world is full of dealers selling rip-offs of others creations - even photocopying the original instructions - and it has always been so. Then there is the situation where a 'new' item' is promoted and we are told that it is based on an idea by Joe Bloggs. Not a copy of Joe Bloggs original trick note.

We know there are many tricks based on the same principle all freely used throughout the land we may never know who devised the principle. Is that right? Is anything truly 'new'?

This discussion is far reaching so have others any views.

Mark

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What you want to do is re-sell the same effect with your name on it.. and offer alternative handling to 'authenicate' it!!

We all add our own handling to every effect we buy because we do it differently to suit our own personalities.. and capabilities.. but we do not attempt to re-sell effects as our own simply because we add or take away a few moves..

The idea of this is quite unethical !!

Effects that are based on an idea of someone elses are a completely different effect, different climax, different way of getting there.. different method ENTIRELY.. not just a diffent handling of the SAME effect.

Everyone will use their own patter or storyline.. and present an effect differently, so all you have donw is changed one aspect.. touch in place of sight.. and want to call it your own.. Nuh uh!!

It's really down to personal ethics. We should all take existing effects and turn them into something personal and unique so they are fresh and different for the spectators but to sell that adapted version without full approval of the creator of the original would be questionable. We know it goes on and we know big businesses are regularly stealing stuff on the basis that the little man can't afford legal redress so they get away with it. Without mentioning any names, the words 'Magic' and Makers' come to mind. At the Ipswich Magic Day recently, Paul Daniels showed us a new routine he bought from Martin Breese for about £80 or so. He showed the handling as supplied with the props (a clock and a pizza box) and then showed how he had tweaked the props a little, added something else then changed the presentation into something far better, far more inclusive of the whole audience, and far more entertaining. He wouldn't sell that version on as his 'own' but there are many others who would.

Bottom line, we should by all means develop bought effects into something unique but it's questionable to sell it on as your own without full approval and understanding by the creator of the original effect. If it's an old effect and the creator is dead then the descendents or whoever distributes the original should be contacted and all avenues explored and exhausted before assuming that the new version can be sold and even then a credit in the instructions would be a courteous thing to do.

Lets just for arguments sake say you were going to sell yours....

1) Is it unique enought that you could patent it?

If the answer is yes, then I will accept your claim that it is your own NEW effect....if hte answer is no, then you are not allowed to claim it as yours!

Either way......the rules are set up the way they are, so in my opinion, like em or leave em!

I am not trying to be harsh, I am simply saying that if you don't like the rules, then why join.......

oh, please let us know when you do market it though please...

i'd love to rip it off and repackage it...

In fairness, I think Mark actually voiced his agreement and said

I fully agree with the Terms & Conditions demanded of us especially what may appear to be rather harsh terms

The terms are deliberately restrictive to prevent trading of 'iffy' items or those where purchasers may be duped into buying copies and rip offs. There are many other places where such items can be traded so, although we occasionally get spirited pleas to slacken the rules, it ain't gonna happen !

I think what we're all saying is that without having the original you'd never have come up with yours. It just feels wrong to take someone else's inspiration and call it your own without their permission.

Let's say that I see effect A. Effect A is awesome and awe inspiring and leaves me flabbergausted. So I goto the source of A and buy from him the workings. I now know how A works. This line of thinking leads me to create effect B. Though, it only <i>inspired</i> how B works and uses a very different method. Albiet one that I would probably never have thought of if I hadn't obtained A. Therefore, A begot B. Without A there is no B.

You still owe what you have to A, and you should not profit off of A directly. (Keep it. You bought it. Otherwise it isn't much different than pirating A. Sure, YOU will have paid for it, but now the next person is paying YOU and not the originator. The originator has sold 1, where 2... or maybe even 3 have not been bought down the line. That is a LOSS)

If B is different enough, it MAY be OK for you to market the idea. But you had better give A much credit in your materials. (but I guess this is moot as you said you'd not be selling it.)

In otherwords, via the moral code you owe it to the originator of A to keep it. Doesn't mean you have to. But that is why rules are in place.

moodini wrote:1) Is it unique enought that you could patent it?

What have patents got to do with anything? How many magical creations can you think of that are patent-able? I'm struggling to name one.

Why is everyone ignoring the fact that Mark has said (twice now) that he has no intention of marketing what he's done and that he respects the rules of the forums? He's trying to start a more general ethics debate.

From experience I would say that with a very few exceptions ethics debates are just theoretical discussions and have very little to do with the real world. This is because when you talk about marketing something it becomes business and the rules of business are only constrained by what you can legally get away with. Ethical niceties which aren't supported by legislation have always been and will always be ignored where there is money to be made.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have ethics but ultimately I think discussions on ethics are pretty futile. Unless there's a breach of copyright (which isn't very easy to establish with magical variations) then the only real sanction for an unethical individual is being ostracised. So it really just comes down to whether you care about other people's opinions and can square things with your own consicence. There's no black and white line when it comes to variations vs. new ideas.

Perhaps another consideration is variety. Look how many "coins through bottle" effects there are, all with different methods. But the spectator only sees the coin pass through the side or bottom of the bottle. To him it's the same trick, so it's incumbent on us to come up with new effects, not new methods.

Bottle through window, anyone? The performer throws a bottle at a window. It harmlessly passes through the pane and smashes on the ground outside. I can think of a method, but if I were to release it, I guarantee there'll be a rash of similar effects within months, all generating the same effect - making the whole thing very boring.

yeah, there would be:

Paneful
Crash bang wallop
windbot
and so on, and so on, and so on...

i suppose though, the thing is, there's very few effects released that are 100% original surely...its just the nature of inventions to a certain extent, same with music...

and even then, with some completely new methods, they always have their roots in something older one way or another...

Im trying to work on an effect to get a nail & hammer to pass through a window.. im working on it.

Hammer is swung at a nail held against window.. the hammer hits the nail.. the nail passes through the window.. then the performer proceeds to push the hammer through the window.. letting it fall out the other side..

Im working on methods but they all involve breaking the glass at the moment i will get there though.. its my project!!

I got a load of great tips from Sankeys Create your own magic.. so I am!! new to magic.. hey.. I've got 10 years to come up with a marketable version..!!