talkmagic.co.uk

Soren Riis wrote:A magician using Strippers is a bit like if a pianist is placing a CD-player in his grand piano.

If it were a CD-player, would it not simply leap out of the box and perform its own tricks?

Ah so its ok for YOU to have a stacked deck but not use gimmicked deck? I personaly love the svengali deck (not like a man loves a woman but you know) gimmicked decks have there place in magic of course they do so dose a borred deck. And yes a lot of gimmicked decks are one trick ponys thats not the point if your working a lot of people the gimmicks become worth it. Ok i dont own a whole bunch of gimmicked decks just a BW and a svengali. Plus some gimmicked cards and few packet tricks. I think sometimes you can get a better reaction out of using a gimmicked deck.

I know borrowing an object adds to the magic there is no deneying that often i used some ones coin , ring and cards to great effect. There is room for gimmicked and non gimmicked effects in magic.

Im going to ask a stupid question and thispost proabably answers itself as Iknow a lot of magicians on this site love stripper and svengalis but...

Are they any good? Ive never used a stripper or a svengali and do they open up a whole lot of possibilities or are their uses fairly limited?

Enlighten me.. maybe Ill buy one.. maybe being most likely

I've got a stripper deck, very rarely use it anymore though. Seriously thinking about buying Tomo's book to breath some new life into it.

Soren Riis wrote:A magician using Strippers is a bit like if a pianist is placing a CD-player in his grand piano. I am not a purist, but ideally card magic should be done with a borrowed deck. I use Aronson's stack as well as the 8 king-stack - which would not work with a borrowed deck - however use of a stack is OK provided that at least one other effect (e.g. a triumf rountine) has been performed before the stack is used.

For me any deck switch is quite "expensive" and should be limited and used with care. There is absolute NO reason to use a stripper deck.

I will just assume that it is lack of experience working in the real world that would have you say such a thing?

And just so you know PROFESSIONAL singers lip sync all the time and a not so well known fact is so do musicians use recordings.

I.D wrote:Are they any good? Ive never used a stripper or a svengali and do they open up a whole lot of possibilities or are their uses fairly limited?

Well, I got over 90 pages of techniques out of a stripper deck alone. And it's also a "real" deck, so you can bust knuckles too.

I will just assume that it is lack of experience working in the real world that would have you say such a thing?

Absolutely not! I fact I have never seen a serious card magician use a stripper deck. Lennert Green was once accused of using gimmiced cards and he failed to win the FISM world championship. Later, when people realised he used genuine cards he won the FISM world champion title.

Are you telling me that top performers who win major prizes for example FISM world championship are not living in the real world????

Are Michael Vincent or James Brown (who to my knowledge do not use strippers) not living in the real world?

Or do you not belive its possible to perform with a stack (e.g. 8-kings and Aronson stack) in a reallife professional situation? If someone come up with an amazing effect that cannot be replicated with ordinary cards I might change my mind, however lot of damage has been do by magician using gimmiced cards and quite a lot of lay people are aware that there exists various trick cards on the market. As I said I am NOT a purist who would never use gimmiced cards. Far from it!

However, to use a stripper deck is like having support wheels on your bike. I recomend that anyone with ambitions of becomming a professional cyclist take the support wheels off their bike!

Soren Riis wrote:A magician using Strippers is a bit like if a pianist is placing a CD-player in his grand piano.

And a CD player sounds so much better than a piano, especially one inside piano!?

I take it you deny the use of Invisible, Brainwave, Svengalli, Gaff, Force, Blank, Mindpower and Koran decks, to name but a few?

How about any other gimmick in any other context?

It's not the tools, it's how you use them. One might be able to get an amazing reaction out of a crowd with a deck of cards because you can use them in such a way that they don't know where to start looking.

You do a stripper trick that people look at and say "that's a dodgey deck" then you've failed. Do a trick that knocks them out and you've entertained them.

Some tricks you just can't do with a normal deck. You can do some tricks with other decks that defy meaning, but still don't suggest a gimmick.

You sound like a purist, but forget not that people entertain people in different ways.

Soren Riis wrote:However, to use a stripper deck is like having support wheels on your bike. I recomend that anyone with ambitions of becomming a professional cyclist take their support wheels off their bike!

Some people put motors on their bikes. Some people use cars. Some people get the train.

How do you get to work?

We are not all trying to be professional "standard deck" users. The term "magician" is a bit more far reaching.

I.D wrote:Ive never used a stripper or a svengali and do they open up a whole lot of possibilities or are their uses fairly limited?

A stripper is a normal deck, so no, it's still good. It is, however, "special" and one needs to think "outside the deck" to get to grips with it. I'm no expert, but I'm determined to start exploiting that deck as soon as my book arrives.

I think this discussion is quite important and should maybe have a thread on its own.

It seems that I hit a raw nerve when I said that

to use a stripper deck is like having support wheels on your bike. I recomend that anyone with ambitions of becomming a professional cyclist take the support wheels off their bike!

As I said I am not a purist and have in principle nothing agaist using gaffed cards or special decks. Of the decks you mentisoned ( Invisible, Brainwave, Svengalli, Gaff, Force, Blank, Mindpower and Koran decks) maybe the ID is the most practical. I have not used any of these deck in a professional setting, but I am certainly not against magicians using these decks.

I suppose my view is (sorry this will probably hit another raw nerve) that it is OK to use trick cards but only if you have erned it! People, who go into a magic shop, buy a svengali deck and the week after perform in the local sommer fete or the local city market are in my view causing damage to magic.

I know my view might sound a bit dogmatic, however in the time of internet and huge increase of number of "magicians" it is important to stand up for standards.

It is possible to use strippers, Brainwave, invisible etc, however it is a mistake to believe that it is easy to use these decks. In my view these decks should NOT be used as a substitute of skill. There are many excellect magic effects that are easy to perform and uses genuine cards.

For any beginner I will strongly recomend Michael Ammars, easy to master card series that contains some very strong effects that all are very well suited for beginners in card magic. Please, study Ammars excellent DVDs. I find his advise on presentation and how to perform the effect especially important.

So to all beginners: Instead of using strippers, get a sound foundation and study carefully Michael Ammars easy to master DVDs.

Then later when you become more expert and master more slights etc I have no problems with magicians using strippers, marked cards etc...
There is a place for all these decks, however the place is NOT in the hands of a beginner!

Soren Riis wrote:It is possible to use strippers, Brainwave, invisible etc, however it is a mistake to believe that it is easy to use these decks. In my view these decks should NOT be used as a substitute of skill. There are many excellect magic effects that are easy to perform and uses genuine cards.

Now that I can concur with. You seemed to imply, with your quip about training wheels, that a stripper was only a substitute for skill.

You are right, there are many excellent tricks with standard cards, but to say that a stripper is not a professional standard deck is like saying that all regular cards tricks degenerate to force or control followed by reveal or vanish.

It's all about exploiting what you have to its full potential.

well i'll have to kinda agree to disagree with most of what been said, but i'll give you some background first.
my first ever deck of magic cards was a wizard deck which were stripped and marked along with a copy of mark's excelent book, i had already bean quit comftable with coin work and kids magic ie prop based and doing some shows.

the book and card combo allowed me to be able to do tricks that i did not already have the skills to do straight away wilsed i learnt the skills needed to do them sleighted so they were a replacement directly for skills but allowed me to improve my sleights at my leisure wilst still performing.
today i still use a deck for card forces and some sleights that are enhaced by the gimick or for sleights that contain a risk factor and also as i began to loose the control of the deck i could still perform the tricks longer than i could had i not been able to use this type of deck, which i belive brings me back full circle.

so i guess I'm just sitting on the fence then.

I was once told a story about how The Professor was on television doing a very complicated card routine and at its conclusion of course was applauded.

Then after the commercial messages a young boy no more than 10 came out and did the ID and the audience gave him a standing ovation.

Mr. Vernon chose never to work on a show when someone else was performing after that and in discussions with his peers said "The gimmicked deck is a tool like a TT is a tool. To not use it is like not using a hammer to drive a nail". I guess there are those who would rather use a rock to drive a nail I'll stick with a hammer.

The story was told to me by Frank Garcia at the Gaieties Restaurant on Broadway in NYC Summer 1975.

Soren Riis wrote:A magician using Strippers is a bit like if a pianist is placing a CD-player in his grand piano. I am not a purist, but ideally card magic should be done with a borrowed deck. I use Aronson's stack as well as the 8 king-stack - which would not work with a borrowed deck - however use of a stack is OK provided that at least one other effect (e.g. a triumf rountine) has been performed before the stack is used.

For me any deck switch is quite "expensive" and should be limited and used with care. There is absolute NO reason to use a stripper deck.

If you see Tomo's book, you will think again. He has some principles in that book that simply are so lateral to everyone's common understanding of the stripper deck that you would not even think that some of the routines are meant for it.

Thanks DrTodd,

I got curious and wil certainly give it a chance and have a look at Tomos book. So far I have the same experience as oeb when he write:

In my experience the 101 books are not that great. I think I have that one and if I remember correctly it is the same ten tricks repeated over and over. Eg - Find the royal flush - Find the four aces - Find their selected card. Nothing that someone with a stripper deck could not come up with themselves in 34 seconds.