talkmagic.co.uk

I love magic epically the sponge but you all knew that but there is one thing about magic that is rotten to the core and that’s the politics of magic.

Its on forums all the time even at talk magic we are having a debate on who said what about who and why. Now when you get a bunch of people in the same room (forum) there will be disagreements that’s how a forum works. Intelligent debate on subjects its all a part of democracy and that my friends is a good thing.

All the in fighting and the likes at the top levels of magic wont effect me on the whole I am never going be in Vegas doing a Burton type show I am happy doing table hopping and walk around. But the politics dose trickle down in smaller forms. Take E for example there wont let other people sell E products until they say so. This is fair enough in a way because after all there are their products.

And in XCM the politics are even worse , A done a move that is slightly built on B’s move and should have credited him for it. Etc. I understand that writers and creators get upset at plagiarism its only natural. But all this mud slinging that goes on is filling up forums not just ours fast.

There have all ways been great rivalry’s in magic like in all show business. Keller and Herrmann from ages gone by. This allows our art to go forward and the creation of new effects its healthy for magic.

I was once explaining to some one about the politics of magic and they didn’t believe me until I showed them some web sites and they said “I didn’t know it was like that”. When I first brought my first book on card tricks and a deck of cards from Woolworhts I didn’t know it was like that. I think it can be quite of putting for some one new in magic to see all this going on.

Of course if some one says something against you , you have every right to defend your self and so you should. But the whole “elitism” for want of a better word is harming magic just as much as exposure of sinister other tricks on you tube.

You may not agree with what I have just said well it’s a democracy and you have your right not to, but I open the doors on a debate on this.

Sadly, being a magician doesn't necessarily make anyone a nice person . Magicians' Ego is a big thing and any perceived challenges to that usually result in full-scale warfare. I can perhaps understand it amongst professionals who earn their living though magic but it's worrying that some 'umble amateurs have the same attitude.

To a certain extent all this is mirrored elsewhere in the world of cookery. Celebrity Chefs are the equivalent of the big names on magic, the amateur cooks are on the same lines as amateur magicians, there are full timers and part timers and each has jealously guarded secrets. There are discussion forums, conventions and gatherings for the masses, products and books are released regularly and compete for the money of those who try to keep up with the trends, others simply develop and invent their own recipes just like we do in magic when we think up our own routines and ideas.

Arguments and strife are commonplace amongst chefs and the worrying thing is that they're allowed, nay expected, to have very sharp knives close at hand!

There's no debate... magic is a horrible political machine filled with brown nosers and butt kissers, it's just that simple; it is a caste like structure that supports genuine talent PROVIDED it knows how to agree and play by the rules of the currecnt status quo and whatever their whim happens to be "this morning."

Fortunately magic is also filled with that handful of pricks (a.k.a. individuals who can be seen as conservative free thinkers) who off-set the former structure just enough to help bend and shift things around here and there. Some say they are the reason for so much "debate" but in my mind, this type of individuals are the ones that help make the blood to flow from within the order. A person of this type embraces tradition but also pushes it forward in a what to help it grow; doing so with the introduction of materials the compliment their craft and at the same time, create challenge.

I know all too well that the latter type is often feared, mocked and shunned by "the establishment" and yet, as time passes the works and philosophies offered by these individuals, becomes embraced and sustained by the new generation. A prime example of this would be Mind, Myth & Magic and how Thomas wasn't overly understood or supported during his lifetime, and yet today it is heralded. The same is true with the contributions of Tony Andruzzi and even a couple of those that are still alive and breathing like Rick Maue and Michael Sibbernsen.

This should prove an interesting chat.

Well my uncle worked with a few top chefs Mandrake and what you say is very true indeed. I am glad you have come in on this Craig what with you being at the sharp end of it all.

I think that the same can be said in any artform. You'll always get those who with the big egos, doesn't matter if they're pro or not or even half the time if they're any good.

I've seen this in the past when I used to show and sell my paintings, there were always those artists who would call you up for taking inspiration from someone else. But at the same time, try and break away and do something on the edge and you'd get called up for that too. Just can't win.

Look at the conflicts in music too.

I think that magic is a creative artform and these kinds of politics just go with the territory.

Much like any other profession that requires large amount of skill (Be it sleight of hand or a performance) a form of eliteism will no doubt swell up from it. It is present in many careers etc.

I think it boils down when ever you got a group of "like" minded people doing something, One or two will allways get on a high horse and tell every one they are the best. I work with a bloke that everything must be done his way , you dont do it he goes home! and I am just a humble home contents logisitcs officer.

Show biz is a funny old game.

As one professional said to me not too long ago, 'I'm not elitist - I'm just better than everyone else'. At the time I thought he was joking but I'm not so sure now!

“The most terrifying thing is to accept oneself completely”.

that's the problem as Lady of Mystery said, all creative areas encourage the ego to overtake the reality of your own talents...

i've witnessed some truly awful bands in my time of running clubs and teaching the guitar...

ego is a powerful beast, both good and bad, you need a little to perform, but let it overtake you and that's all you become...

some awful self inflated circus mirror image of what you think you are, rather than what you truly are...

razorlight is a good example, that lead singer said "Our first album is better than dylans first album"...pfft, come off it...sounding like the Waterboys with angular Talking Heads riffs is hardly the heralding of the new dawn is it...

take pleasure in learning, take pleasure in entertaining, but dont take pleasure in being a grossly inflated git...there's always someone thats going to be better at something than you...just be the best "you" that you can...or ewe if you're that way inclined...

politics are to be ignored and occasionally to be used to wipe a selected orifice on...

There are ego's and there are ego's dont you think Mandrake? Then again if you got continue slaps and stuff on the back maybe you start to think you are the greatest.

My parents friends have a daughter. Now for some reason some told her shecan sing. so all we get now from her is "i am soo great"

Markdini wrote:My parents friends have a daughter. Now for some reason some told her shecan sing. so all we get now from her is "i am soo great"

This is why I reckon Simon Cowell is performing a useful service to society by showing them that they can't.

I second that one Tomo

Someone should have a quiet word with that little girl - she's heading for great disappointment when she eventually finds out (Waaaah, Mommy and Daddy lied to me, waaaaaah!!)

Yes there are egos and there are egos and provided they're used to just do the best you can then they're fine. It's when egos overrule common sense that the problems start. The common thread to this art and the others mentioned above is that human beings are involved and that's where the trouble lies - some people are OK and others are complete @rses. It's tempting to suggest that lack of real skill brings on an ego attack but we've had ego problems here with well skilled professionals who think they're have the right to be immune from comment but immediately threaten legal action to back it up. Others who have disagreed with comments made on TM have just made their point and explained why they disagree and it's all been sorted quietly and without undue fuss.

Mandrake wrote:Someone should have a quiet word with that little girl - she's heading for great disappointment when she eventually finds out (Waaaah, Mommy and Daddy lied to me, waaaaaah!!)

What and take all my fun away when she finds out she cant.....

In anything there is an elite i take Craigs castle idea and i understand that when you get to the "top" of your game you are allowed a little bit of ego, But not too much you cant get through a door.

It's the same with anything. Working in entertainment, bands and comedians are the same. It's usually the people with little talent themselves that see it as worthwhile to put others down for not knowing some of the things they do.
I come on here because I am passionate about magic and interested in talking with other magicians and to be honest, there's only two people on here that I found to be condescending and rude. One was after my first few posts regarding IT. I try to ignore those and converse with the more postitive helpful people which luckily there are many on here.