talkmagic.co.uk

a few dilema's, actually.... firstly, my cousin recently told me he has a few Magic books and Videos (yes, videos, apparently media can be stored on them) ... adn has offered to give them to me, as he no longer practises magic... i feel like i cant let them go to waste, but at the same time, i have read MANY posts about second hand media shouldnt be passed around, as its 'taking profit from those who created it' or similar posts.... What should i do, if i take them, they will stay in MY collection, and not budge for other eyes to look at???


also, my other problem; if someone that practices magic has the means and tools to create a gimmick, similar to one they already own, should i tell them about it and how to do it, or let them go ahead and buy the gimmick for 'X' amount? An 'x' amount that doesnt really need to be spent?

well firstly he's giving you them freely so theres no profit motive for the origionators to be swindled out of.
secondly he is stopping magic so only one magician will benefit and to my mind its like your mentor giving you homework after all you can get second hand magic books from charity shops and boot sales, do the charities and private sellers pay the book owners royalties i don't think so.
your on a prety safe wicket my friend.

also, my other problem; if someone that practices magic has the means and tools to create a gimmick, similar to one they already own, should i tell them about it and how to do it

if they already own the gimmick then I'm sure there'd be no problem remaking it if it wears out or as a backup.

but if they say i can make a gimmick similar to a raven but don't own a raven you should not then tell them how to make a raven or use your knowledge of the raven to put them on the right track.
they should buy one for themselves and adapt it to suit there needs.

It's good to see questions like this being asked - and it certainly is a dilemma, that's for sure.

The twist comes in with the comment that your friend is no longer pursuing magic as a hobby, so it follows that he won't be performing the material on the tapes either. The main reason why TM disallows the trade of books, dvds and such is to prevent people from making a mental/physical note of the methods and then selling them on to someone else - which amounts to them having stolen the knowledge and subsequently using it when they have surrendered their right to do so.

On the surface, I would say it is okay to do for it is not really any different than if your friend had bought them as a gift for you - kinda like he has paid for the rights for you to make use of them. This is superficially the case, anyway. If you really want to determine whether it is okay for you to take the material then you would need to consider the following questions:

How did my friend come about the material - did he buy it himself?
How extensively did he use it? How extensively do I plan to use it?

If he did buy the products himself then all's well, onto the second question - did he perform them once or twice for friends or was this stuff he was using to create a name for himself? If it's the latter then I would say that you should probably buy the material.

(Look at it like a seesaw - if he made light use of it, and you will probably make light use of it too, then things balance out; if he made a name for himself with it, but you only plan to make light use of it, then it's not balanced but the seesaw is still functional (and vice versa); if, however, he made a name for himself with it and you plan on doing the same, you've got two great weights on either end and one broken seesaw)

But what if you're friend was given them from someone else? Then if you really wanted to do the right thing you would have to look at how much they had used the material, and so on and so on.

There is another thing...

With this situation, although the number of people using the material is equivalent to the number of copies of said material bought the creators are still loosing out on a potential sale.

So I guess the answer to this one (once you've thought about the earlier points) hinges on the following question: is the material something you would have bought yourself anyway? Or is it something you've never had any desire to look into?

If this isn't stuff you've had any desire to check out before, and which you probably wouldn't have checked out anyway, then I would say it's okay to take the material. If you like what you see and make good use of it, then maybe you should think about giving the creators their dues.

I hope these points help you make some kind of a decision - as such I can't say either way, but remember - you always have the option of buying copies for yourself if you think you will make use of it...in posting this you've shown yourself to be someone who cares about such matters, so I'm sure you'd do the right thing in the end .

i have read MANY posts about second hand media shouldnt be passed around, as its 'taking profit from those who created it' or similar posts.... What should i do, if i take them, they will stay in MY collection, and not budge for other eyes to look at???

You should accept! The question is in my opinion similar to the question whether it is acceptable that people sell and buy second hand videos in general (e.g. in car boot sales). When we have wathced a video a few times the video has lost its value for us. We have so to speak formed a mental picture of the material and do not need the video anymore! Yet, most people have no problem either giving the video away as a gift, swapping it or selling it second hand.

I think the situation with magic DVDs/Videos is roughly the same. There is however a small difference: Usually an ordinary DVD/Video loose its value completely after some time. A good magic DVD/Video tend to function a bit more like a dictionary one might need it for future reference and consultation. We keep dictionaries it since we might need them in the future.

Another maybe more serios problem is that magical circles often have a Video/DVD library. I have myself utilised such libaries, however I am not always sure the author has accepted this or gets proper commision. However, in general I think most magician would be only pleased to have their DVDs availeble for a closed circle of magicians. However, I do think the circle ought to have the permission of the author.

Cardza wrote:The main reason why TM disallows the trade of books, dvds and such is to prevent people from making a mental/physical note of the methods and then selling them on to someone else - which amounts to them having stolen the knowledge and subsequently using it when they have surrendered their right to do so.

Sorry but I can't help myself.... if the person has bought the video how can he have "stolen" the knowledge?.. regardless of what he does with it after.

and then..

magicdiscoman wrote:well firstly he's giving you them freely so theres no profit motive for the origionators to be swindled out of.

With that logic P2P programs are fine, download all you want for free from the people willing to share the knowledge for nothing....

I find it very sad this person has been motivated to ask the question in the first place regarding a gift from a friend.

cool, thanks guys... i think ill accept them... ill have to get rid of the dust from them though, as they have not been used for a while!!

the trick im on about is svengali and mirage.... the person has all materials needed already.

Wukfit wrote:

Cardza wrote:The main reason why TM disallows the trade of books, dvds and such is to prevent people from making a mental/physical note of the methods and then selling them on to someone else - which amounts to them having stolen the knowledge and subsequently using it when they have surrendered their right to do so.

Sorry but I can't help myself.... if the person has bought the video how can he have "stolen" the knowledge?.. regardless of what he does with it after.

Okay, just to clarify - notice how I say "which amounts to"...

X buys DVD 1 for £20

In buying the DVD, he is paying for the right to use the knowledge (in most cases).

X, having absorbed this knowledge, resells it for, let's say £15

In doing this he is recouping most, if not all, of the money he spent on it in the first place. The other person is paying for it, and thus has the right to use it.

In making use of the material, X is effectively stealing the knowledge - because he has surrendered his rights to use it by selling it on.

And I don't think it's at all sad that he's thinking and trying to do decide if what he's doing is the right thing.

I understood it, but seeing as im being given them (by a cousin) it shouldnt be a problem? Especially as he no longer practises magic? is that an accurate summery?

Cardza wrote:
In making use of the material, X is effectively stealing the knowledge - because he has surrendered his rights to use it by selling it on.[/i]

And I don't think it's at all sad that he's thinking and trying to do decide if what he's doing is the right thing.

Since when do you "surrender your rights to use knowledge" once you have given away the material you gained the knowledge from as a gift?.. your logic is grossly flawed.

You come across as educated, university maybe?... do you think people who learn from publications they bought to learn there chosen subject and pass exams worry about such things?

and I said it was sad that he was "motivated" to ask the question regarding a "gift".... if you worry about such thing then I hope you have a great Christmas

In making use of the material, X is effectively stealing the knowledge - because he has surrendered his rights to use it by selling it on.

So according to this logic a person who sells his Videos "learn French in 2 weeks" is not allowed to speak French anymore??

oh dear, look what i started! I couldnt get he head around it at first.

but it looks like there is a Magicians Ethical code... basically dont screw over another magician.... if they've worked on a trick, and want to sell it, leave them to it, they are in it for profit. ill stick by this code, sure enough. however, me personally? i perform for the fun of it, IF i ever invent a decent trick/gimmick, ill hapily share it out, only payment ID want, is that you remember WHO intented it!

Since when do you "surrender your rights to use knowledge" once you have given away the material you gained the knowledge from as a gift?.. your logic is grossly flawed.

No it's not. Effectively, morally, I mean, you do - or rather, I should have said - should surrender it.

Let me put it from a different angle: you work something out an effect from a DVD. You don't buy it. This is theft. Not physical theft as we tend to define it, but you have not paid for the right to use it. That's clear?

So let's say you buy this DVD instead. You have paid for the right to use that knowledge. You then sell it on and recoup some of the investments, which effectively renders the original purchase void. The right thing to do is to cease performing the material for yourself.

With regards to giving it as a gift the creator is losing out on a sale while more people are making good use of it, effectively for free.

That's the thrust of my point...is that clear now?

You come across as educated, university maybe?... do you think people who learn from publications they bought to learn there chosen subject and pass exams worry about such things?

Nope, different arguments, and one which commonly crops up. There is a big difference between the motivation for a magician/mentalist releasing their material and a scientist, let's say, publishing what they find.

One does it to earns some money and to share what they're material with like-minded people. The other typically is on a fixed wage, receiving funding, and is paid to research and release their findings.

and I said it was sad that he was "motivated" to ask the question regarding a "gift".... if you worry about such thing then I hope you have a great Christmas

I will have a great Christmas thank you .

Cardza wrote:
Let me put it from a different angle: you work something out an effect from a DVD. You don't buy it. This is theft. Not physical theft as we tend to define it, but you have not paid for the right to use it. That's clear?

So let's say you buy this DVD instead. You have paid for the right to use that knowledge. You then sell it on and recoup some of the investments, which effectively renders the original purchase void. The right thing to do is to cease performing the material for yourself.

With regards to giving it as a gift the creator is losing out on a sale while more people are making good use of it, effectively for free.

That's the thrust of my point...is that clear now?

Man you have issues.... how do manage to walk the streets without worrying about paying for what you may see or learn....

You morals are great and I applaude you for them, unfortunately you either live in a different world from me.. or you are a hermit cause if I worried about such things I would go mad

Have a great Christmas and a Happy new year

Dear cardza,

You forgot to comment on my remark!

Soren Riis wrote:

In making use of the material, X is effectively stealing the knowledge - because he has surrendered his rights to use it by selling it on.

So according to this logic a person who sells his Videos "learn French in 2 weeks" is not allowed to speak French anymore??

In doing this he is recouping most, if not all, of the money he spent on it in the first place. The other person is paying for it, and thus has the right to use it.

In making use of the material, X is effectively stealing the knowledge - because he has surrendered his rights to use it by selling it on.

This 'logic' is bordering on bizarre. Given the benefit of the doubt, we can say it's confused. The dvds/books do not contain 'knowledge' they contain information. Knowledge is what you have after you have mentally processed information. A DVD or book gives the owner the potential of acquiring knowledge. Once you have this knowledge you no longer have the potential to acquire it. Thus you no longer have the original benefit of the product.

You can not steal the knowledge because it is yours, and earned legitmately. You can not steal the information because you bought it legitmately. You can not steal the right to use knowledge because it is yours. You can not steal the right to use information because you bought it fairly.

About the only illegitimate thing you can do is make illegal copies and sell them and thave nothing to do with stealing knowledge or information.