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I've getting quite confused by some of the lengthy and arrogant threads about Mentalism.

Can some people define Mentalism (and usefully what's not Mentalism) in their own terms and what it means to them so I can have more of an understanding of their perspectives.

Cheers

This was my interpretation...

Mentalist
A performer who uses mind skill to demonstrate that they somehow can control or manipulate, or even SEE hidden energy.

I've heard many definitions over the years, but one which tends to make a lot of sense is that the art/skill/realm of mentalism is the premise that the mind controls the body, and is at one with physical nature... therefore being part of a whole, the mind can be taught to manipulate physics.

Sounds a bit like Jedi powers? Well, I guess so.

But it brings to the fore the idea that a mentalist achieves his/her displays of skill via use of their mind, nothing more.

For instance, fitting in the category of mentalism:
Psychokinetics/telekenisis—the ability to control the energy in and around objects with the power of the mind, i.e. make a pen move on a table, or change the temperature of a metal spoon enough to 'melt' it.

Mind reading—the ability to delve into the thoughts of a spectator using either specifically psychological or manipulative means, or using insight.

And, what's NOT mentalism could be defined as magic... again, my take on it:

Magic
Magic's more to do with it's origins as a 'supernatural' power. Anything which rationally can't be explained by nature's laws would be said to be magic. In days of old, magic was a bit of a classification which described either the conjouring or invocation of supernatural events, or the event itself.

For instance, if you suddenly hover three feet off the ground after being smitten with a spell it could be classed as 'magic'. And if you call upon the powers of darkness to turn water into blood, that would most definately be magic!

Over the years, magic has become an entertainment. Magicians and conjourers now aren't supernatural beings who use eye of newt and leg of toad to create their 'spells'. They are performance artists who use clever misdirection, sleight of hand, mechanical means and other deceptions to create what is PERCEIVED as magic.

The illusions can sometimes be so strong that magic or the supernatural MUST be the explanation, but, as we all know, it's just VERY clever minds at work.

Examples:
Ambitious card—a card is signed and placed in the centre of a deck of cards, but keeps re-appearing at the top of the pack.

Sawing a lady in half—a woman is placed in a box and visibly cut in two

Have you been here yet?

http://www.talkmagic.co.uk/ftopic11429.php

Thanks seige, that's brilliant.

I have been there Craig, but I would still like your personal definition; what it means to you.

seige wrote:This was my interpretation...

Mentalist
A performer who uses mind skill to demonstrate that they somehow can control or manipulate, or even SEE hidden energy.

I've heard many definitions over the years, but one which tends to make a lot of sense is that the art/skill/realm of mentalism is the premise that the mind controls the body, and is at one with physical nature... therefore being part of a whole, the mind can be taught to manipulate physics.

Sounds a bit like Jedi powers? Well, I guess so.

But it brings to the fore the idea that a mentalist achieves his/her displays of skill via use of their mind, nothing more.

For instance, fitting in the category of mentalism:
Psychokinetics/telekenisis—the ability to control the energy in and around objects with the power of the mind, i.e. make a pen move on a table, or change the temperature of a metal spoon enough to 'melt' it.

Mind reading—the ability to delve into the thoughts of a spectator using either specifically psychological or manipulative means, or using insight.

And, what's NOT mentalism could be defined as magic... again, my take on it:

Magic
Magic's more to do with it's origins as a 'supernatural' power. Anything which rationally can't be explained by nature's laws would be said to be magic. In days of old, magic was a bit of a classification which described either the conjouring or invocation of supernatural events, or the event itself.

For instance, if you suddenly hover three feet off the ground after being smitten with a spell it could be classed as 'magic'. And if you call upon the powers of darkness to turn water into blood, that would most definately be magic!

Over the years, magic has become an entertainment. Magicians and conjourers now aren't supernatural beings who use eye of newt and leg of toad to create their 'spells'. They are performance artists who use clever misdirection, sleight of hand, mechanical means and other deceptions to create what is PERCEIVED as magic.

The illusions can sometimes be so strong that magic or the supernatural MUST be the explanation, but, as we all know, it's just VERY clever minds at work.

Examples:
Ambitious card—a card is signed and placed in the centre of a deck of cards, but keeps re-appearing at the top of the pack.

Sawing a lady in half—a woman is placed in a box and visibly cut in two

Hi Seige,

I am not sure the definition for mentalism works 100% since many mentalist performers do not claim they have any special access to hidden energies etc. Derren Brown does for example not make such claims, but I think he essntially is a mentalist (though he began his carrier as a magician). Maybe mentalist have a disclaimer up front where they for example like Falkenstein and Willard might say that they are using the ordinary senses to create the illusion of another sense etc.

Even Banacheck use as far as I remember some kind of disclaimer...

Soren

If you read, I said 'premise'. Whether specifically implied or not, mentalism revolves around the premise of 'mind over matter'. Whether the actually execution of the effect uses mindpower or merely trickery is absolutely inconsequential.

The dictionary definition of mentalism is:

1. Parapsychological activities, such as telepathy and mind reading.

2. The belief that some mental phenomena cannot be explained by physical laws.

(well, that's a single definition, there are many more)

The defining factor for me personally is that a mentalist per-se uses skills, techniques and manipulations of the mind—be it their own or that of a third party.

Whether or not the mentalist claims such powers to be unique or specifically their own, or indeed whether or not they wish to attribute their skills to psychological gift is entirely up to them.

Marvell:

If you have been there:

Craig Browning wrote:Have you been here yet?

http://www.talkmagic.co.uk/ftopic11429.php

Then the you should have the answer to the question. It is a comprehensive answer and a guide for many years of study and reflection. Read it, re-read it, and keep reading it.

Soren Riis wrote:I am not sure the definition for mentalism works 100% ...

I asked for a personal definition, so it's fine by me.

What's yours Soren?

DrTodd wrote:Then the you should have the answer to the question. It is a comprehensive answer and a guide for many years of study and reflection. Read it, re-read it, and keep reading it.

OK, I must be totally stupid then, because I can't see Craig's personal definition of Mentalism there. I don't understand what it means to him. Nor do I understand what it means to you.

mine is:

magicians shop at magic shops
mentalists shop at WH Smiths/STAPLES

magicians use sneeky unseen moves
mentalists use blatant moves

magicians work is external/visual
mentalists work is internal/cerebral

magicians tell a story
mentalists take you on a journey

...magicians "show" things, they find, they change they alter...
whereas mentalists influence, dictate, predict and read minds...

that's about it as far as i've discovered so far

I see mentalism as just another branch of magic which if you think about it is exactly what it is. I hate to break it to the world of mentalism that trickery is used throughout and probably 90% of it is done by forces that are not metaphysical. As for the other 10% I have just realised as I type this that there isn't 10% and I have just deluded myself as all good mentalists do.

I have always said that mentalism is the strongest and most stunning branch of magic if done properly and the worst if it is done badly because of the boredom fact inherent in it. Unfortunately the latter is much more common than the former and I can't really think of a single mentalist that I get truly excited about nowadays. They all bore the c*** (not the best) out of me especially that awful Derren Brown whom I have seen twice on TV and went screaming up the wall with his irritating British personality and dull little tricks.

I was prepared to give him some leeway and truly assumed that his live stage show was better but it has now been reported to me that he uses crude vulgarity in said show so I am afraid I highly disapprove. It reminds me of why I left Britain which I consider to be a bloody awful country and nearly as bad as Canada.

But back to the subject at hand. I do not approve of this silly twaddle going about nowadays that "Mental Magic" and "Mentalism" are two different things. They aren't. Mentalism is mentalism and has been for a couple of hundred years or so until some daft person in the PEA started this new redifinition about 15 years ago. Up till then mentalism was known as mentalism as it should be and the term "mental magic" was quite interchangeble with "Mentalism" until lots of daft people like Reverend Browning conned themselves that it was something different and interfered with the English language which had been perfectly serviceable in these matters up till then.

There have always been different approaches in presentation. Some people like to go the whole hog and say they are real and some people say it is psychology and body language etc; and there are also some people who almost come straight out with the implication that it is indeed a trick.

No matter. It is still mentalism and I do not approve of people mangling and trying to redefine the English language. Mentalism is mentalism and there are simply variations in the way you present it according to individual style.

As for what it means to me I am just trying to earn a living and will do whatever is necessary to do so. I am trying to entertain people and not start a new religion. If people believe I am the real thing (and there are lots of daft people who do) that is their problem. I have enough worries of my own. If people don't believe I am real I don't particularly care either. I don't go on the power trips and self delusional fantasies that other mentalists do. As long as nobody throws anything and the cheque clears I am happy. I am an ENTERTAINER and that is all that I care about.

And that is what everyone here should care about too.

Marvell:

My personal definition goes as follows:

Mentalism:

A noun combining the root word mental with the suffix -ism, which denotes a body of work or associated community of scholars and practitioners.

The etymology for mental is from Middle English, which variously means of or relating to the mind; of or relating to the total emotional and intellectual response of an individual to external reality; relating to the mind, its activity, or its products as an object of inquiry. (there are other associated meanings that fall outside the scope of this discussion).

So, with that background info:

Mentalism:

a form of performance in which the performer uses the theories and methods of magic and combines them with psychological, linguistic, and rhetorical techniques to create credible demonstrations of mind-reading, pre-cognition and prediction, extra-sensory projection, unexplainable synchronicities, and other parapsychologcial manifestations using everyday objects and concepts.

Thanks for the insightful comments. It would appear that it means all sorts to all sorts of people.

The reason I asked was that I saw mentalism as descriptive of a set of tools which are used in magic. I saw magic as a skill performed by magicians and that mentalism was descriptive of those effects which were explainable only by the magician having a mental gift which allowed them to create the effect.

That gift may be mystical, in that he could read or influence minds through some "power" or was an ability to read, predict or influence the situation by psychology or hypnosis. Is the latter behaviorism? Is there a distinction in the field of magic?

Is a card prediction mentalism, if presented as such? Is winning scissors, paper, stone mentalism?

Is Derren Brown a mentalist? Does his card magic, which includes mental forces, count as mentalism?

Is it correct to say some IS a mentalist, or that someone USES mentalism?

This is where my confusion lies.

IS and for some, OUGHT to be

marvell - in my opinion it's all such a fine, fine line seperating it all, i've found there comes a point where you just go "pffft...to hell with it...", and just concentrate on freaking out and entertaining people...

whatever your methods, whatever you present, if you do it well, and within the right contexts, i feel thats what the audience cares about, not what label to stick on your forehead...

definitions for the most part mean different things to different people i feel...whatever fits your character and skill set, then that's it...