god experiment (from Misc)

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Postby Marvell » Feb 15th, '07, 18:54



Farlsborough wrote:As Marvell points out, there is no way you can even begin to come up with a "probability for God".

Which means you can't use terms like "unlikely".

Farlsborough wrote:As for "a simple explanation of evolution to complex form" - I'm sorry, I just don't think such a thing exists, or if it does it is making far too many presumptions.

Here's a simple explanation of evolution: Breeding and mutation produce children which are similar to their parents. Those that are most likely to breed do so in preference to those less able. Thus, the characteristics which increase breeding ability are more likely to be retained in the gene pool.

Farlsborough wrote:Evolution is *not* an easy, cover-all explanation - I absolutely think that it played a big part in how we came to be, but i refer you back to my "and before that?" retort!

Evolution is a theory for the developemtn of life within the framework of life, not an explanation for the origins or life per se.

Farlsborough wrote:I know they are the building blocks of life - but how did they come about? For that matter, how did atoms come about?

I understand, though not an expert, that amino acids can be formed when lightning struck certain chemical "soups". This has been done in a lab, I hear.

Where atoms came from is a different matter, but it doesn't matter to the theory of the origins of life, since that theory only requires them to exist. It doesn't theorise about their origins.

Just because you can't prove the axioms, doesn't mean you can't further maths. Unlike evolution, maths falls to bits if someone disproves an axiom. Evolution and the origins of life, however, can still work if God created the atoms or otherwise.

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Postby Farlsborough » Feb 15th, '07, 20:21

Hi Andy. Yeah, the quote thing took me a while to master as well! Basically you just need to tag the text like this: [ quote = "person you want to quote"] blah blah blah [ /quote ] (spaces added to stop it happenng here!)

Okayyyyy...
Not knowing does not in itself necessitate an omniscient, omnipresent God, no. However, it is not simply "not knowing" that prompts people to seek God, otherwise they'd be soul searching every time they did a particularly difficult crossword! These are my reasons for why I don't believe that God's existence has been disproved.
Believing in God comes from what civilisation has "felt" for thousands of years - that there is someone up there! That there is another dimension to life other than our flesh and blood physicality. In addition to this, the idea that there are absolute morals, that some things are right, and some things are wrong regardless of culture - which gives me the feeling that they are defined by a higher power.
It isn't that I look around and think "ooh, the natural universe... for some reason the name Jesus springs to mind", I make basic observations about what I see happening around me, and then learn about God from the Bible, and the two seem to click.

I've PMed you about Biblical contradiction and nastiness, because I don't want to derail the thread too much, and it' also a total essay!

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Postby Farlsborough » Feb 15th, '07, 20:27

Aw, screw it... Most of you will want to skip this post, but for what it's worth, here's Andy's reply...


Biblical contradiction and nastiness! Basically, I'll just try and explain if I can any contradictions you want to talk about. It's the generalisation that I challenge - the idea that it is riddled with contradictions when actually if you really study it it makes a lot of sense, the problem is usually that people are quick to try and tear holes in it without doing the ground work.

The Old Testament is quite hard to get to grips with, I don't deny it. But it should never be forgotten that the Bible is about Jesus, and has that vein running right the way through it, even in the OT. I can't remember how many prophecies he fulfills from the OT - something in the region of 300 or 400. And yes, the OT may not be trusted as a historical document - it is describing things that happened quite a long time ago! But the New Testament has precious few inaccuracies in it, and is historically complemented by other, non-biblical and even anti-Christian documents. And really, knowing about Jesus is the fundamental tenet of Christianity - once you're happy with that, you can plough into understanding the OT at your own rate! I do need to read up more, I'll be honest, but at the moment I'm happy to trust the guys who are a lot cleverer than me and have done their homework... like the 18th century lawyers who set about to destroy Christianity by disproving the resurrection and when they came back together after a few years they'd both become Christians.

Nastiness. This is always a biggy, because the OT does have some fairly extreme sounding stuff in it. Firstly, I'd say that a lot of the weird sounding laws, eg. in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, make a lot of sense it retrospect regarding hygiene etc. which is God looking after his people. Before you read it, you have to keep in mind the back story - mankind has turned away from God, and is therefore set for death. Many of the laws are not as bad as all that (don't sleep with your mum for instance, I'm ok with that one), as for the harsher ones:
This is the interim period between man's rebellion and God's plan to redeem them; it's the stage where mankind is working uphill to try and get into God's good books. So the laws are God saying "this is how hard it is to be perfect". The detail that goes building the temples reflects how important your relationship with God is, the animal sacrifices symbolise that there is a cost to wrong doing that that something or someone has to pay for the mistakes of men - this is all a blueprint, this is all God saying "this rebellion is a serious business and it's going to take something big" - cue Jesus! A guy called C.J. Mahany (this is a currently living person, not a historical figure!), had exactly the same issues as you and really dug into the Old Testament. When he'd finished, he basically said "I started out wondering why all these people died... I finished wondering why I was still alive."

To dip into the OT casually, you identify with the people in it and think "ah, poor them, that's harsh". But this is coming from a proud human viewpoint, a viewpoint that tries to claim we are innocent. Hard as it may be to swallow, that's not the Christian stance... and what's more I don't see any evidence to back that up today. As he says in High Fidelity, "think of the top 5 worst things you ever did... now who's the asshole?". There are plenty of people in the Bible who see bad things happening around them, but have the insight to say "yeah, actually we deserve this... we probably deserve worse. God is good."

You mention God being jealous - he still is - it still troubles him to see his people ignoring him. But knowing jealousy from a flawed, human idea, it's quite hard to understand righteous jealousy. I think that's generally the hardest thing to get a grip on in the OT - to us it sounds harsh because if we were to dole out that kind of judgement, it would be, and it would be unjust. But because of the gap between mankind's behaviour and God, it isn't harsh, in fact it's fitting. The more you see of God's goodness and perfection, the more cr*p we look as humans, and the more it begins to make sense. If I told you I was going to lock a man up for 2 years, you might feel sorry for him and think I was being harsh. If I told you he was a serial killer, you'd probably be wondering why I wasn't throwing away the key... does that make sense?

To modern eyes, all the war in the OT may seem bloodthirsty, but this is just the way God allows a nation to be disciplined in a culturally relevant way.The times when God speaks to the people (through a prophet) read like a heartbreaking love story... imagine a husband saving a wife from slavery, giving her everything she needs, and yet time and time again he finds her having an affair with someone else... that's what it's like. "I saved you, I've been so good to you, I've been on your side! Stop it, please! Don't do that! Come home!" Or a Dad with tears in his eyes, smacking a child for wandering off into the road *again*... "I don't want to do this, but you won't understand unless I do..."

...and finally, a very clear pattern is established through OT history. Man rebels against God, man suffers, a leader emerges and restores the people back to God. Which sets things out nicely for God to do this once and for all with J.C.! There are so many things like this, that appear "nasty" but are far from it. Like Abraham being asked to sacrifice Isaac and then being stopped at the last minute... you could read that and think "how totally cruel of God", but the message couldn't really be clearer... God's saying "no, you're not going to have to sacrifice your son... I am."

As a Christian, I love all this stuff, I find it fascinating, but the fact is that it's somewhat academic... it's purpose now is to remind us of how far we can get on our own, and what it means to be offered the forgiveness that we are... I guess that's why they call it "the good news". :)

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Postby AndyRegs » Feb 15th, '07, 21:36

pffft...come on now...aliens ...you're happy to quote aliens as an "out" cos it fits the explanation you give, but you're dismissive of the religious stuff...


The point I was making, was if someone listening to a singing voice with no previous knowledge/learning of what a 'good voice' is. The alien thing was just to make a point. Even people who do know what a 'good' voice sounds like, we have different opinions. Some people think opera singers has beautiful voices, where as I cant stand it and prefer punk rock and the like (which opera fans usially think sounds awful).

Talking of aliens, you can say that there is a possibility of alien life form, because we know how vast the universe is, and the possibility of planets with similar atmosphers as earth. I personally I am not sure, though they would have to be so advanced to actually get here. I don't think you can talk about the possibility of god in the same way.

Farlsborough wrote:
Believing in God comes from what civilisation has "felt" for thousands of years - that there is someone up there! That there is another dimension to life other than our flesh and blood physicality.


Couldn't that just be wishful thinking, or even an arrogance of consciousness.

As for the Bible bit, I will have to reply tomorrow. for one I have been in front of the computer all day and have a head ache, two, I have a nice hot cuppa and a good book waiting for me, and three, I need to dust off the old bible before getting back to you.
I am truely intrigued if you can answer some of the questions, or give reasons to some of the things I bring up. The usual response I have usually recieve is either denial, or something about the NT superceding the OT.

Til tomorrow, good night, and god bless. :wink:

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Postby IAIN » Feb 16th, '07, 09:53

ah but if you're willing to entertain multiverses and aliens, you might as well accept any and everything else...

for me, despite being an atheist, im not out to prove or disprove anything, i like certain things being unexplanable for some reason..i feel no urge to break every little detail down...i just except it for what it is really...

i think the mind, and life and all its experiences should be seen as a partially open door, you let light in, and you let light out...

i think atheists should remember that science does on occasion prove itself incorrect, the same as some psychology can be improved upon (like personality types for a quick example); just as much as believers of whatever religion they choose or are born into should remember that parables give no indication of reality, though can be just or more important than actually existence itself...

as for war starters, i think thats a non-starter thinking about it, i dont think its really to do with the rules of religion, its more the evil/greedy intent of people (religious or not) that take things and twist them to suit their own needs...

though i must admit, if god does exist, i'd like him to be a bit more vengeful and put the fear of..well...god into a few dirty reprobates on this earth at the moment...

and as for the god as a gardener, well...yeah...im fine with that...all organised religions would lose their labels and hopefully, power too...and people could get back to doing what they want without fear or reprimand or fear or burning/stoning/bombing/pinching...

lenny bruce said "more and more people are turning their backs on Religion and going back to God"...

im a devout atheist, but as i said, with zen leanings...works for me...good luck to everyone elses choices (thats if you believe in luck) :wink: i guess we'll all find out when out times come eh...

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Postby AndyRegs » Feb 16th, '07, 11:36

as for war starters, i think thats a non-starter thinking about it, i dont think its really to do with the rules of religion, its more the evil/greedy intent of people (religious or not) that take things and twist them to suit their own needs...


Would september 11 have happened if not for religion? (by the way...custard monsters are pacifists!)

Now for the biblical contradicitons. Here are just a few:
How did Judas die?

"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:18)



When is the second coming?

MAT 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

MAR 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

LUK 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.



War or peace?
EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.



Alsothere are two creation stories and what were Jesus' last words? Wasn't there a cencus, like mentioned in the nativity, but a small one and only six years after the death of jesus.

As for nastiness, there are too many to mention, but try reading Judges (19:22-30).
After taking in a traveling Levite, the host offers his virgin daughter and his guest's concubine to a mob of men(who want to have sex with his guest). The mob refuses the daughter, but accepts the concubine and they "abuse her all night." The next morning she crawls back to the doorstep and dies. The Levite puts her dead body on an ass and takes it home. Then he chops the body up into twelve pieces and sends them to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

And lastly, why does a god need to be worshipped?
The bibical god ignored the rest of the world, and loved only Israel.
He killed his own son for sins he created. For he created the world and everything in it.
And lastly, he hated females, and expecially gay people.

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Postby AndyRegs » Feb 16th, '07, 11:38

ah but if you're willing to entertain multiverses and aliens, you might as well accept any and everything else...


All I said, is that you can have a theory about this based on FACT. You cannot have a theory based on god using anything but blind faith and wishful thinking.

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Postby Marvell » Feb 16th, '07, 11:41

AndyRegs wrote:Would september 11 have happened if not for religion?

I understand that 9/11 was nothing to do with Christianity. It wasn't a holy war.

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Postby AndyRegs » Feb 16th, '07, 11:43

I understand that 9/11 was nothing to do with Christianity. It wasn't a holy war.


I never said it was. I said would it have happened if not for religion?

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Postby IAIN » Feb 16th, '07, 12:00

before this discussion just downgrades into an argument and a "I'm right" "you're wrong" kinda thing, can we all agree that neither side is an absolute...and more a sliding scale...

any thought process, whether its religion or science, takes a certain amount of belief too...and we're all right and wrong to varying degrees...

just bite yer tongue if you're inclind to say "yeah, but im more right than so and so..." :wink:

this has been interesting though...thanks all...

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Postby AndyRegs » Feb 16th, '07, 12:08

any thought process, whether its religion or science, takes a certain amount of belief too...and we're all right and wrong to varying degrees...


Well yes, but only to the point of the questions being redundant (see previous reference to custard monster). Though this part of the discussion is becoming a bit repetative. I'm enjoying this though, it interesting.
So lets not stop now.

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Postby Marvell » Feb 16th, '07, 12:13

Yes, let's stop. We've had a jolly good natter, branched off a few times and not been too circular. It's nice to have had this discussion with so many that are able to state their case with clarity and without aggression.

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Postby greedoniz » Feb 16th, '07, 12:23

Agreed.

I has been a fascinating and intelligent conversation so far and its best to cap it on the head before it degrades to general name calling, the loss of beliefs and uncontrollable sobbing.....and that's just by me.
As with all subjects there are no absolutes apart from I'm right! :wink:

I will leave with two quotes from Mr. Douglas Adams

Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?

and

Now it is such a bizarrely improbably coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful [the Babel fish] could have evolved by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED"
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

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Postby Tomo » Feb 16th, '07, 12:34

Right, it's time for a giggle. I'd rather own a Welsh person than a French one:

Dear Vicar,

Thank you for doing so much to educate me regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to the French, but not the Welsh. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Welsh people?

e) I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is alright to eat crabs and lobsters. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear spectacles. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed and shave, most of my female friends shave under their arms and also some other unmentionable regions, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.


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Postby IAIN » Feb 16th, '07, 12:41

where was Moses when the lights went out?

in the dark...yes, i know, not that Moses...

but its something my dad used to say to me after tucking me in and flicking the switch...little did he know that i had unplugged the electric chair at the socket...

whenever religion is mentioned, i always get the Derek & Clive skits playing in my head...

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