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I had a lengthy discussion today with a work colleage about generating random numbers.

My side of the argument is that it's not strictly possible with a computer, because computers are mathematical by nature, and randomness isn't in the rulebook.

Any thoughts?

Well, the machanical processes which computers use (don't ask me, I don't know) would seem to suggest that the idea is not possible. My understanding is that RNGs 'produce what are called pseudo-random numbers. These are sequences of numbers that are sufficiently `random' to pass all current statistical tests for randomness in `realistic' cases. '

I heard a story of someone who found out a way to crack this (World's greatest gambling scams' or a similar show) and got sent to jail for it.

I don't really know all that much about computers anyhow, so I might just be guessing when I say that it doesn't sound possible.

Very interesting:
http://www.random.org/essay.html

Our argument came that online gambling is surely open to predictibility after reading a comment in the news that online gambling companies are raking in profits.

randomness is something that's a little bit on the wierd side. like you say, computers are technically incapable of generating anything truely random, but can usually simulate it quite well.
but think on a smaller scale, the outcome of the toss of a coin is, mathematically, completely random.
as for generating random numbers just get a few D10s out and throw them, it's as random as you're going to get!

I would say no, computers can't produce random numbers as they have to be programmed to produce any numbers at all. They could be programmed to choose numbers at random but these would still have to be inputted making them completely random. The only case of real random i can think of is the radiation (gamma rays) given off by nuclear material. No scientist has yet worked out how to work out when this is going to happen and the material just does it randomly.

the only case of randomness you can think of is radiation? mad, i'd argue that's not really random. not as random as, say, the outcome of a coin toss
although newton claimed that nothing was random anyway, that everything is all predetermined and whatnot

So somewhere out there in the vastness of the unknown there’s an… equation for predicting the future?
An equation so complex as to utterly defy possibility of comprehension by even the most brilliant human mind, but an equation nonetheless.

....oh....my....god...........

Our nut of a physics teacher has us taught that theres an equation for everything. Time travel, predicting future and all sorts but thats more his beliefs than facts although i do see where hes coming from. I mean, nothing is impossible. Long distance contact in seconds was in victorian times and look at the tiny little mobiles you get now. Its all a matter of time.

I chose neuclear activity as an example since its the most natural form of randomness i know. I mean, depending on the weight shape and size of a coin, heads or tails can't be *exactly* even can it?

in theory if it was exactly even then it just makes it even more random. i could start going on about cats in boxes with poison about now, but the quantumness of everything would start messing with my head again.
as for natural randomness why not go for something slightly more comprehensable by other people, like the sex of a baby, that again, is random as!

I wish I understood chaos theory... is it a branch of mathematics?

Well, I've been messing around at my computer, and decided that I can generate a pretty random number... but, could the COMPUTER predict my random number...?

I just ran a simple application based on one seed, which generates a digit as a decimal fraction of 1.0 (I think this is the standard computer random function)

The application was set to run a loop, like this...

*************
$array = ''; (create an 'array' variable, capable of housing each individual random number as an entry in a list)

LOOP STARTS

$random = randomnumber (this gives me my 0.xxxxxxx)

$random = integer($random x 1000) ... (this shifts the decimal place over by 3 places to give a number between 1 and 1000, and the 'integer' bit makes it a whole number, not a decimal fraction, i.e. rounds it up)

AddRandomtoArray($random) ... (this adds our number to the array)

LOOP CONTINUE 1,000,000 (loop continues until 1 million numbers are in the array)

CountSimilarities(in $array)
******************

Seemingly fair. (the above isnt the actual code, it's kind of laymen speak)

The result was surprising. And quite random.

Out of 1 million random numbers chosen, between 1 and 1000, there were a good chunk of duplicates around the numbers 500 to 900. Very few matches in the 1 - 100 mark, and the LEAST common number was 999.

I don't know what this means, but it seems the computer's randomness was biased between 500 and 900.

Every number between 1 and 1000 was chosen at least once.

The most popular number was 723. For some reason.

I may run another loop and repeat the test 1 million times and compare the cumulative result... it sounds like a lot of number crunching, but takes about 3 seconds for 1 million results to be checked!

Thankyou for confusing me seige. The big words and numbers do well for this purpose. The thing is though even if something is random it is its own enemy. Due to the natural way of randomness you're always going to get numbers more than others which is why its so hard to prove if somethings random or biased.

As for chaos theory is that not more Degree physics?

chaos theory? choff! it's ALL game theory!!
but yes, it's maths (after a fashion)
like we've said, can't see computers generating anything that is truely random, but they could go on forever without anyone working out a sensible pattern.
it all depends on your definition of "random" really.
the best way to generate a truely random number is the roll a few dice (in the theoretical and truely literal meaning!)

The one side of a dice would weight minimally more than the 6 side if you think about it though so again not technically random. Numbers can't ever be random i don't think since humans thought them up. Without humans then numbers wouldn't be in existance at all which brings round the question


What is the meaning of life? O/J

Sir_Digby_Chicken_Ceaser wrote:The one side of a dice would weight minimally more than the 6 side if you think about it though so again not technically random. Numbers can't ever be random i don't think since humans thought them up. Without humans then numbers wouldn't be in existance at all which

you'd get things thrown at you and chants of "noooooob" for saying things like that round these parts.
ok, pretend the dice is even then! THEN it's bloody well random!
as for numbers being invented you couldn't be more wrong, there's a reason that what you see as numbers are called Natural Numbers!
when the aliens come to this planet, they'll use the same maths as we do, it will probably just look a little different, but 2+2=4 everywhere you go, in one form or another....
I'm going to stop befor i start my "i can comunicate with aliens better than a linguist can" rant!
and we should just combine this with the "maths problem" thread

Lol, depends on how you throw the dice though. Holding it different ways has different effects, i saw a program once about a guy who made thousands just by how he rolled the die on the craps table.

I wouldn't say number have always existed but formulas will have. We just put numbers into the formlas as our way to understand them.

I must say I'm quite enjoying this debate lol

stop throwing practical things into this!! I'm all theoretical (and right i'll have you know). if you're holding a dice in your hand and you dont know which face is up, then it honestly doesnt matter how you throw it.
i know the dice man you're talking about, i'd link you to his website but he's a bit on the gansta side and likes guns a little too much.